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Best and worst heroes?

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McBehrer
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Best and worst heroes?

So, out of curiosity, I want to hear how you would rate the heroes in terms of effectiveness. Which hero is your most favorite to use and/or the most powerful in your opinion, and which is the one that you always mulligan when you roll randomly?

I love me a good, civil argument, so if you disagree with my or anyone else's choices feel free to debate.

As for my favorite, I have trouble deciding. There are a lot of really good ones. In terms of pure crowd control and versatile yet consistent damage, it's Mr. Fixer. I also really like Wraith for her versatility, and Absolute Zero is fun to use.

As for least favorite, I have three that kind of tie for the position. I recognize that all 3 have uses and can be great against certain villains, but for me they are either too hard to use consistently or just not great.

The first is Bunker. He's an absolute beast against people like the Matriarch or Voss, and pretty good against the Chairman or Omnitron, but unless you get Ammo Drop, good luck getting all the cards you need for his good setup. Even then, it always seems like I'm sitting there playing cards the whole game, but by the time I can pull out BUDDABUDDABUDDABUDDABUDDA mode I have let the other heroes do most of the work for me.

Then is Expatriette. Again, she has potential to be pretty good. She doesn't have anyone in particular she's really good or bad against, except she has a tendency to just run out of cards. She can play 2 a turn, but apart from Arsenal Access, she has no way to draw more. So she is basically the opposite of my problem with Bunker; she can get her cards out fast, she just runs out of them easily. Also, on occasion I have gotten nothing but ammo, so she just sat there comatose until she happened to draw a gun.

Last, of course, is Haka. Now, I guess I've been playing him wrong, so I never realized he was supposed to be more defensive than offensive, but his power led me to believe that he was supposed to be the damage-dealer. So he's not necessarily bad, I guess, but I don't like him that much.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

msbq
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Most favorite(s): Definitely Fixer for versatility, Ra for stupid amounts of damage, and Legacy for all-around support.

Least favorite(s): Tempest just never seems to really do well in my hands. I've seen him do great things as a part of a team (controlled by a friend), but every time I use him we end up losing. Perhaps that's a coincidence? Who knows.

Also: Expatriette is really quite amazing with a supporter type hero at her side. Legacy giving her +1/+2 on damage or Visionary letting her draw up quicker makes her 10x better.


"One for Wrath... and one for Ruin."

Ronway
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I consider no hero the worst, since each have their own traits that are more useful in some situations and less in others.

In terms of gameplay I would say Unity, Tempest, and Absolute Zero are my top three. Can't say much about Unity so i'll skip that for now, but as for Tempest I like that he has amazing multi-attacking powers and even Electrical Storm in play will cause some more madness, though his weakness is getting his damage reduced makes him more difficult to use, but he can reduce damage dealt to him and also heal the allies (though I don't tend to heal while playing him). As for Absolute Zero, he's just an all around fun character, and enjoyable to play.

Now for the characters I don't choose as often when playing in groups are Visionary and Legacy. Don't get me wrong, both fantastic characters, i'd just rather someone else play them then myself (solo play that I don't choose randomly I tend to choose Legacy as one of the heroes though).

awp832
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Why did you have to say "favorite or best"  McBeher?  Because its hard to call what people are talking about.  Far be it from me to argue against anyone's favorite character.  If they're your favoirte,  then they're your favorite!  End of story.  You don't need a reason for a character to be your favorite,  or it could be for reasons entirely outside gameplay.  How they look,  what other comic book hero they are an homage to, dialogue, theme... anything.  Furthermore, favorite-and-best are often in direct contradiction to each other.  I love Bunker... but I'm going to put him in my "3 worst" heros as you'll see in a minute.  But if it was based on favorite... I doubt he would be there.

The best:

#1:  Visionary.  I don't see why people don't squeal about this amazingly incredible hero more often.  I feel sometimes that myself and flamethrower are her only fanboys.  One look at the Flawless Victory thread will show that Visionary is the lynchpin in just about every one of them.  So much so that we've specifically taken on the additional challenge of trying to get flawless victories without Visionary, because if you pick Visionary, the right villan and at least one hero with a damage absorbtion power [legacy, Ra, Zero], you can rack these up ad infinitum  with little challenge in doing so.

But that oughtnt be my entire argument, and its not.  No, despite the brokenness of Twist the Ether, visionary is good because Visionary does everything.  She can tank, deal damage, control villan deck, control environment deck, control villan trash, buff, debuff, and help people draw cards.    I mean really, what else is there?  Wrest the Mind is exceedingly powerful when played on the right target, especially if followed by Telekenetic cocoon.  Plummeting Monorail is great for this, and a bit of a teaser thrown in here, there is an enviroment card from Infernal Relics that can put Plummeting Monorail to shame in terms of "things you want to mind control".    Her base power is among the best base powers in the game -possibly the best base power in the game (its either that or Galvanize)-.    Especially good when used on Tachyon, but also perfect for hunting for a specific card that a hero really wants to get out or have in hand.   

And if that happens to be an ongoing card, and it gets destroyed well, that is what Mental Divergence is for.    Ahem,  well, that is one of the things Mental Divergence is for.  Mental Divergence is absolutely fantasitic agaisnt any villan that uses ongoing cards. 

But her best thing is probably Suggestion.  First it gets two cards out of the trash, which is oh-so-useful and oh-so-rare of an ability.  I don't believe any other hero can take something out of the villan trash once it is in there.  Putting one card back on top of the deck is maddeningly good, because it can give you a turn where the villan essentially isn't doing anything, or isn't doing much.    But the fun doesnt stop there, you get to pick a card you dont want to see again and put it at the bottom of the deck.  Great against any villan that gets stuff out of their trash.

That was longer than I thought.  I was going to post the others in my top 3, but I think I'll spread it out a bit and instead just do one of my bottom 3.

The worst

Absolute Zero:  I'm posting him instead of anyone else because I want to be controversial,  I know he's got a lot of love.    But it is the absolute truth that I think he belongs  in the bottom 3.  Reckless mentioned this in another thread, and he was spot on.  Someone said that Zero was great against villans that dont kill your stuff very much, to which Reckless replied essentially that  -that is exactly his point.      I couldn't agree more.

Zero needs, at a minimum,  3 cards to work.  He MUST have Isothermic Transducer, Null-Point Calibration Unit, and Thermal Shockwave.  If he is missing any one of these he is not effective.  And really he kind of needs Coolant Blast, and Cold Snap to be at his most effective.  His ability to get his modules usually is not an issue, and though getting out Thermal Shockwave sometimes *is* an issue, I'll ignore that problem for the moment.  After an equipment wipe, he needs essentially 3 turns to get back to doing something.  Thats just too long to wait.  I've played many entire games of Sotm that were over -victory or defeat- in 4 turns or less.  His base power is undeniably the worst in the game,  a power that is not only useless, but actively *harmful* if you dont have other cards out to help.  So if you dont have Null Point or Module Installation in your starting Hand, or if you didnt take damage the first turn,  then you're not using your first turn power phase, its as simple as that.    This gives Zero the slowest start of any character in the game.    And even after Null-point and Isothermic,  healing 1 damage is still pretty lackluster for a power phase.

Finally,  he is also very finicky.  This has nothing to do with his effectiveness,  so you have that as a disclaimer.  But it DOES have to do with my enjoyment of the character, and since that was included in the original post,  I'll mention it.   

Ra:  Ok,  I cast Blazing Tornado.  3 fire damage, 1 for the staff, 1 for Galvanize.  5 damage to the Assault Drone, it dies.  Go ahead, Zero.

Zero:  Okay,  I cast Thermal Shockwave.  Thats cold 1 damage to the repair drone, -Oh Galvanize,  2 to the repair drone- plus 2 to Omnitron, Plus 2 to myself  -3 to myself because of Cryo Chamber-.  So I take...  2...4...7.    7 Fire damage.  Galvanize.  8 fire damage.  and also I had Imapale going this turn, so that was another... 3 cold damage I deallt this turn so add on 3 to that I take... 11 fire damage.  10 fire damage because of cryo chamber.  Then I deal myself 10....  11 -cryo chamber- cold damage... 12 cold damage because of galvanize so I...    ...  heal for 2.


"He robbed from the rich and he-
gave to the poor.
Stood up to the Man and he-
gave him what for. 
Our love for him now,
aint hard to explain,
the hero of Canton,
the man they call "Jayne""

McBehrer
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You're doing Ra Wrong. Try this...

I cast Blazing Tornado. That's 3 fire damage, 1 for the staff, 1 for galvanize, 1 for imbued fire, 4 for solar flare... 10 damage to Omnitron. I don't take any damage from them because of Imbued Fire. Your turn, Fanatic.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

The_Densetsu
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I know the Visionary can be a lynchpin in many situations; but against some villains (like Spite), she's more of a liability.

Oh yeah, I want to deal damage with my one-shot. Oh wait, H-2 means I do 1 damage.
I want to use a power. Oh wait, I just lost 2 HP and 5 cards from the top of my deck.
I can't manipulate the environment because Spite destroys all Environment cards anyway.
I can't manipulate villain deck because Spite doesn't play cards.
OH WELL. I WILL JUST HIDE IN THIS TELEKINETIC COCOON AND DRAW CARDS.  :'(

McBehrer
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Well, if you have stun bolt to reduce the damage he does, he won't hit you, and you can still help others draw cards with your power.

Or, you could just hide in the cocoon so whenever he would hit the highest he hits visionary, who is invincible. Especially if you have Smoke Bombs, so Spite is completely neutralized. You just have to worry about him bouncing ongoings back to your hand, but whatever.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

broccoli
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Well, I can't talk about my best/favorite, because that's probably Argent Adept atm; however, I wanted to chime in regarding Visionary.  Out of all the heroes so far, she and Fanatic seem to run the most hot/cold for me (funny, you'd think it would be AZ?).

I've seen games where either of them was completely central.  Visionary treated the villain's deck like it was her toy, continuously got rid of ongoings, and even helped out with damage.  Similarly, I've seen games where Fanatic got her Consecrated Grounds at just the right time, used Wrathful Retribution to decimate a baddy (especially in games vs. the Chairman, where you can commonly knock out one of the two sub-bosses), and maybe even managed to Divine Focus for great damage.

However, I've also seen several games where neither of them could seem to get anything going.  The cards didn't come at the right time, or ongoing/equipment destruction hit just after they did; games where they just seemed to be extra hit points sitting around.

The weird part is though, I rarely seem games where they are "average".  They both seem to either shine or implode.  Say what you will about Haka, but you can pretty much count on him for 2 damage a round, probably a bit of healing, and PROBABLY getting Ta Moko out for some DR.  You can count on him to be at least average.  I think this is what makes it so hard to categorize Visionary and Fanatic.  They swing the pendulum all the way from stellar to crud, but rarely fall in the middle.  Mister Fixer runs about the same for me btw.

That's my $0.02 anyway :)


"I'm not prone to hyperbole, but she is the Antichrist." - chwineka

The_Densetsu
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Yeah, more than worst/best, it'd be better to categorise them as consistent / swingy.

Examples of consistent heroes include Ra, Legacy, Tempest and Haka. You can always count on them to be useful, no matter what the situation is.

awp832
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I'm not "doing Ra wrong",  I wager I play a stronger Ra than most.  I used that merely as an example of the simplicity of Ra vs the complexity of zero, to demonstrate how Zero's "add this, subract this, deal this much damage, subract this, add this, end up with this" way of playing really annoys me.    I thought that was apparent, but I guess not.

Visionary is pretty good against Spite from where I'm standing.  Twist the Ether on him and you have 1/2 of an invulnerability complex.    If you dont have Ra, Zero, or Legacy to finish the other half and make yourselves utterly invulnerable, twist the ether on him again and reduce all but his basic attack to 0 damage, and you're almost as well off.  Then you can use your powers and things with impunity.   

And beyond that, you dismiss the cocoon so easily.  If Visionary gets the cocoon and plays it then the heroes cant lose the game.  Its either win or draw.  That's pretty good if you ask me.


"He robbed from the rich and he-
gave to the poor.
Stood up to the Man and he-
gave him what for. 
Our love for him now,
aint hard to explain,
the hero of Canton,
the man they call "Jayne""

flamethrower49
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Visionary is still very useful against Spite.  No, she won't be hurting him, but that's never why you choose Visionary.  She delays his flipping until the heroes have everything they need.  Influencing the environment is still important, because she can prevent excessive damage to the heroes that way by leaving on top the things that don't do anything before Spite kills them.  And Twist the Ether on Spite is a godsend.

But enough about awp and I gushing about the Visionary.  :)

McBehrer
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On the contrary, gushing about heroes and criticizing others is EXACTLY why I made this topic. Not because I like criticizing people's tastes, but I like seeing both sides of arguments. It's exactly why companies hire people to hack their websites; one person finds a hero's weakness, and another tells you either how to fix the problem or that you're just playing them wrong.

Also, I understand that you dislike AZ's complexity, but you are kind of downplaying his strength a little.

So, with both Modules, Focused Apertures, Cryochamber, Inspiring Presence, and Galvanize, you are looking at +3 to cold damage given, an extra +1 to cold damage taken, and -1 to fire damage taken.

So then you use Thermal Shockwave. Deal 3 targets 4 cold damage each. Then you deal yourself (3*4) + 2 -1 = 13 fire damage. You then deal 13 + 4 cold damage to either another target (which makes 29 total damage, without Cold Snap or Impale) or yourself, which gives you an extra +1, so you deal 12 damage out among 3 targets AND heal for 5. with ONE POWER. And that's not taking into account any other buffs (like Twist the Ether, which would also let you heal for an extra 15 points or so) or ongoings, like Cold Snap (4 cold damage across the board) or Impale (7 cold damage for free to one target each turn), which also add in to the damage you would take for Shockwave. Throw in a One-Shot, like Hoarfire (<3) or Frostbound Drain, and you have large amounts of damage and either large amounts of healing or even MORE damage each turn.

Alternatively, you could do what I love to do, which is put Twist the Ether on the Matriarch and use Demoralize to kill the birds automatically. She'll keep dealing lots of fire damage to AZ (which can instantly be turned around for both damage to her and healing for AZ) so when it comes time for his turn, he can just use Coolant Blast for 20+ points of damage (or healing) as a power. Hell, you may as well give him an Embolden, too. the 5 radiant damage after buffs is chump change compared to all the massive damage and decent healing he'll be throwing around.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

awp832
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sure.  if he gets that setup and can keep it, he's golden.  But both modules, thermal shockwave, cryo chamber, and focused aperatres (lets just stop there and not worry about Imale, or Coolant Blast or Cold Snap, shall we?)  thats 5 turns to get there.  As I said before, some games are over in 5 turns.  Heck I just played 2 consecutive games against Baron Blade [invoving Zero, incidentally, because I wanted to give him another shot] each of which were over [defeat] in four.    Zero got to do absolutely nothing, both games.  One of which he didn't have a module or Onboard in his hand, so he had to make due with playing Glacial Structure to get what he needed, which slowed him down even more.  I'm not saying the loss of either game was all Zero's fault,  but I am saying that Zero certainly was not able to do his part to help the team.


"He robbed from the rich and he-
gave to the poor.
Stood up to the Man and he-
gave him what for. 
Our love for him now,
aint hard to explain,
the hero of Canton,
the man they call "Jayne""

McBehrer
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Of course, every hero has its weaknesses. I'm not saying he's infallible (far from it, in fact. He's pretty much the worst person to pick if you're going to Mars or up against Dawn.) He takes some setup time, and is entirely equipment-dependent. His payoff for it is amazing, though.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

TheJayMann
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McBehrer wrote:
he can just use Coolant Blast for 20+ points of damage (or healing) as a power.

Just a quick reminder, Coolant Blast specifies a non-hero target, and thus cannot be used for further healing.


Do good, I? No! Evil anon I deliver, I maim nine more hero men in Miami, sanitary sword a-tuck, carol I. Lo! Rack, cut a drowsy rat in Aswan. I gas nine more hero men in Saginaw. Reviled I, Nona, live on. I do... o, God!

McBehrer
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oh, does it? I don't have the cards in front of me, so I couldn't remember.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

ketigid
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TheJayMann wrote:

McBehrer wrote:
he can just use Coolant Blast for 20+ points of damage (or healing) as a power.

Just a quick reminder, Coolant Blast specifies a non-hero target, and thus cannot be used for further healing.

I confirm that.

Reckless
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awp832 wrote:
sure.  if he gets that setup and can keep it, he's golden.  But both modules, thermal shockwave, cryo chamber, and focused aperatres (lets just stop there and not worry about Imale, or Coolant Blast or Cold Snap, shall we?)  thats 5 turns to get there.  As I said before, some games are over in 5 turns.  Heck I just played 2 consecutive games against Baron Blade [invoving Zero, incidentally, because I wanted to give him another shot] each of which were over [defeat] in four.    Zero got to do absolutely nothing, both games.  One of which he didn't have a module or Onboard in his hand, so he had to make due with playing Glacial Structure to get what he needed, which slowed him down even more.  I'm not saying the loss of either game was all Zero's fault,  but I am saying that Zero certainly was not able to do his part to help the team.

Also, Abs against The Bird Lady of Alcatraz is shut down pretty easy.  Her cohorts pop two cards a turn.  Matriarch's two card combo screws over his five equipment cards rather quickly (one of them destroys ongoing AND equipment, right?  I don't have the cards on hand to make sure...).  Then again, that's a bit unfair.  Saying that Zero isn't fun against the Matriarch isn't terribly compelling.  I find the Matriarch to be an absolute chore (and nowhere near the thematic power scale of Tachyon, but that's just me).

Let me just say, I enjoy playing AZ when he can actually do stuff.  I find his concept fantastic, his playstyle unique, and playing with fire is fun.  I just have noticed that, unlike other heroes who can at least impotently do something when all of their stuff is broken (deal/reduce damage, draw/play/mill a card, etc.), all Abs can do is punch himself in the junk.  I am quite curious to see if there can ever be a promo card that can keep his fire/cold hurt/heal combo while still allowing him to be useful when he doesn't have his tech in play.

Look at Onboard Module Installation.  It can grab one of only two different cards (that make up a large chunk of his deck, granted, but still...only two), doesn't put them directly into play, and allows him to draw a card and play a card.  Meanwhile, Wraith is having a Razor party with Impromptu Invention, allowing her to search for ANY of her equipment cards, put it into play, and play another card.  Why doesn't the OMI install the card onto the field and allow AZ to play another card?  Presumably it's pulling a Downey, Jr. Iron Man and lets him run and gun while getting tricked out in sweet techno snow gear?  I'd love it if there was at least one way the guy could get himself to play more than one Module a turn.

And I agree with awp (not just because he gave me a positive namedrop, mind you) that Visionary is fantastic.  Twist the Ether and Mental Divergence are amazing.  Also, Brain Burn when Decoy Projection is on the field?  Goodbye Chairman Pike...your Underbosses and Thugs just left town and Visionary is still good to go!  Just tonight, three Suggestions saved my friends and myself from Citizen Dawn merging with the Sun.  There have been situations where she hasn't been the greatest, but I cannot think of a time we actively regretted taking Visionary with us in a game.

Also, why does Mr. Fixer only deal one damage with his Strike?  The fact that he can only have one Tool/Style out at once really limits his usefulness.  At most, he can have Bloody Knuckles/Toolbox/Grease Gun, a Style, a Tool, and Harmony out at once.  Also, Overdrive relies on him having the "Strike" power, so if he ever has a Promo card, its power will have to be called "Strike," or else all of his Overdrives will be completely useless.  Considering what other characters can do with their power combos, he really should be able to do two damage base.

Forgive me if I sound critical, but this is such a great game!  I play it all the time and can't help but notice these things (at least in my group).

TLDR:  I find Visionary to be exceedingly useful in most situations, but have had several games in which Zen and the Art of Auto Repair and Zero have felt rather underpowered.


Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.

Vyolynce
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To be fair, most criticisms of AZ can be equally applied to Bunker. Not as finicky, maybe, but still so very, very equipment-oriented and utterly useless against certain villains/environments. Wraith manages to slip past that restriction mostly thanks to the sheer overpowered-ness of her Improvised Weaponry.

awp832
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Some of them can, yes.    I'm not gushing over Bunker here either (other than  I said in my first post in this thread that I like him for flavor reasons, and not because of his effectiveness).    In fact, what a great segue into...

The Worst:

Bunker:  Ah, what a painful few paragraphs this is going to be to write.  I really do love Bunker, I like his theme and I like the fact that he's based on Iron Man, who is probably my favorite superhero.  But alas,  I am loathe  to put you in the bottom 3,  but I shall anyway.

Lets start with equipment kills.  You simply don't take Bunker to Mars unless you want an exercise in frustration.  And against any villan with copious amounts of stuff killing, he can be a bother.    Now, the newer villans have switched over most of their stuff destruction to an H-X stuff-destroying formula, which honestly is kind of fine for Bunker.  its still nasty, but its kind of fine.  What really messes him up is the destroy ALL equipment cards.  And he does have an advantage over Zero in that ongoing destruction doesnt hurt him as much, only equipment destruction, where Zero really has to have both.  But still, a bunker who can only Initialize is a sad bunker.

But its what happens after that which makes me think that Bunker is one step ahead of Zero.  Bunker is at least reasonably back on his feet after 1 play.  Where Zero takes at least 3-5 turns to get rolling again,  Bunker can get back his grenade launcher or flak cannon and be good to go again.  Sure, he's not AS good as he would be with turret mode and both guns and gatling and heavy plating... but after one play he can do something to meaningfully contribute to the war effort.

But my strongest criticism of Bunker is the mode cards.  They don't work.  Or I should say,  they don't work well.  The only desireable mode to be in really, is turret mode.  Turret mode is just fine.    But I hardly ever go into upgrade mode or recharge mode, the fast-paced nature of the game means there simply isn't time for this kind of buffing.  You  can't afford to be not dealing damage for the 2 turns it takes for you to get any advantage out of those cards.  You would think that his "thing" would be switching between mode cards to get the greatest possible advantage...  but its just not.  You want to stay in "regular" mode pretty much all the time until you have 2 guns out and then you go into Turret Mode.  And thats about all.  If only Bunker could play a mode card for free at the start of his turn,  like Speed Loading or something.  That would fix a whole lot of my problems with Bunker and would make him much more fun to play.

Finally,  Bunker can deal damage.    There is nothing wrong with that, but thats basically all he can do.  He can draw cards and deal damage.  He has a little tanking ability, he has the tiniest fraction of environment control (I do like Adhesive Foam Grenade) but no ongoing/environment destruction, which is something I always want to see from any hero.    If you are SO good at dealing damage that you absolutely blow away the competition, you can get by without such things (like Ra) but Bunker really is not quite to that point.


"He robbed from the rich and he-
gave to the poor.
Stood up to the Man and he-
gave him what for. 
Our love for him now,
aint hard to explain,
the hero of Canton,
the man they call "Jayne""

dragonlordged
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Honestly, I use Recharge and Upgrade Mode all the time, often more than I use Turret Mode.  I guess it's just a different play style, but if I want to be playing a tanking Bunker (which can be done, and done well) I throw down a Heavy Plating and enter Recharge Mode for a while, then leave Recharge, enter Upgrade, and put down my Gatling Gun, Omnicannon, and Maintenance Unit and go to town.  I guess I tend to be in longer games than you.

I'm not sure I have a worst three.  I don't particularly like Tempest, but I think that's primarily because my girlfriend likes him and I rarely play him, I don't like Tachyon because she tends to end the game right around when it's getting fun, and I find Expatriette usually runs out of cards and sits there shooting things too often for me to really enjoy her.

On the other hand, I love Mr. Fixer (when he works, which isn't all the time) because he's steady, consistent damage, very recoverable, and brings irreducible damage to the table, something nobody else does.  I'm also a big fan of Haka, who I find usually ends up both doing a lot of damage and taking a lot of hits for the team.  Finally, I guess the third of my top three is Ra, because getting out his three-card buff combo is so rewarding.

flamethrower49
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I think the three most powerful heroes are Visionary, Wraith, and Tempest.  Tachyon is also competetive for her control options, but she has a little trouble maintaining a board presence.  The rest are varying stages of good, in my opinion - Legacy, Ra, and Haka have amazing capabilities, but lack vital control options (most specifically, ongoing and environment destruction).  Fanatic is hot and cold for me, but you should see awp play her.  Expatriette rarely wows me, but she's got great weapons.  I consistently find Absolute Zero, Bunker and Mr. Fixer at the back of the pack.  (Argent Adept, Unity, and NightMist all rate fairly well on my scale, especially NightMist.  I think NightMist is right there with the top contenders.) 

As far as favorite goes, I'm bad at playing favorites.  A lot of my plays are solo, so I just set it up randomly.  When I'm in a group, I still usually make a random selection, but I think I most enjoy anybody that makes the other heroes shine - Visionary, Legacy, Argent Adept, for instance.

The thing to remember about rating the "best" and "worst" anything in this game is that it's all relative.  The game is practically infinitely variable, and your heroes and their cards work better or worse depending on situations impacted by the villain, the environment, and the other heroes.  Not to keep singling you out, McBehrer, but look at your anecdotes.  They all involve multiple heroes.  Is Absolute Zero the best hero because he happens to combine well with Twist the Ether and Galvanize?  I wouldn't say so.  Though the team aspect is important, you can't really have evaluations of the "best" hero rely on who they have with them, where they are fighting, or who they are fighting against.

To this end, I think the best heroes are the ones who are good on their own, who set things up nicely, and exercise control over the villains.  More justification to follow.

awp832
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I think the best heroes are the ones who are good on their own, who set things up nicely, and exercise control over the villains

I think you might really be on to something there.    With the exception of Visionary to some extent, pretty much every hero can make pretty good use of a damage buff.    Everyone likes to draw more cards,  essentially everyone likes a good buff, and stopping/slowing the villain and environment decks is also always helpful,  so maybe the best heroes are those which have access to those capabilities.    Although if those are the standards, that puts Legacy clearly above and beyond the rest of the pack, and I'm not entirely sure I want to put him there.  A solid hero, for sure,  but the best of the best?  Not sure.

But with that said, I'm continuing on with the original heroes I had in mind. 

The Best:

Tempest.

Before I get to his abilities,  let me just say that Tempest is a clean sweep when it comes to my favorite hero to play.  I hope my fanboyism doesnt pass off as bias because I know theres a legitimate case for him as a top 3 contender, which I will try to convince you all of with only minimal amounts of gushing.  [EDIT:  Omg you guys this is about to be a huge digression.  You have been warned]  Why?  I dunno,  I think part of it is that I'm a "lightning guy".  Take any video game since Final Fantasy and you have 3 basic elements.    Fire, Ice, Lightning.      And really,  if you're a gamer,  you probably have a preference.

Fire:  It just seems to cater to those of us who want to destroy things.  Burn baby, burn and all that.  You might be  a wee bit crazy or useing fire as your outlet.  Fire is pretty much always effective, and often carries the rider of "burn damage" which is generally super good.  I mean there's really not much to not love here, but it does invoke the pyromaniac in all of us.

Ice:  Ice caters to..... [blantantly sexist comments ahead.  I apologize.  Really I do.  I'm better than this.  But heck, I'm already married so, why not...]    gamer girls.  Seriously.  I don't know what it is.  Maybe its the "ice-princess" thing,  but I've noticed female gamers pretty much always have Ice as their element of choice.  Maybe its because their gamer boyfriends or, in the case of my sister when we were kids -their gamer brothers-  tend to choose fire or lightning and they want to be different.    Maybe the blame falls entirely on Shiva from Final Fantasy.  Why do you have to be so sexy and awesome?    Ice:  Because you want to blow stuff up and look GREAT doing it.

Lightning:  Which brings us to the best element,  Lightning.    I dont know why this is an element now, because the Greeks always said it was Fire, Water (could be ice), earth, and air.  Which I guess Lightning could be air but you know what,  We didn't have an Earth element back in Final Fantasy 4.  You have Fire, Ice, and Lit  -because Lightning was too long to fit in the text box-.  Later in FF6 when the creators added a character and got a slightly firmer grasp of the English language, you had Bolt.  By now my digression has a digression.    Anyway, so Lit appeals to those of us who arent as disturbed as the pyros, and want something that is always effective, all the time.  Because stuff resists ice and fire damage.  And sometimes ice and fire damage are super effective but you know what....  Lightning damage is pretty much always lightning damage.  Good old, consistent, reliable, and not only that but at the risk of making a bad pun.....  flashy.      Its like man-ice.  Fire just isn't as cool looking.  You want your enemies to die.  But you also want to be the coolest nerd-baller in school.  And that's what lightning gets you.    Fire?  You got nothin.  Your spells are uninteresting, and consist of Fire and BIGGER FIRE.    In camp lightning, we've got lightning,  and freaking chain lightning.    Seriously,  what fantasy game in the last 10 years hasnt had a variant of this spell?  Not any good ones, I tell you that.    And when you think about it,  isn't that what Tempest is all about?  I seriously get this stupidly goofy grin on my face when I'm playing Tempest and I get to cast chain lightning.    Because it's the spell you always WANT to cast, but rarely get to.

End Digression on elements.   

So I'm a lightning guy and it's sweet.  And beyond that when I first played Sentinels, I was shown a variety of decks with different pictures and simply told to choose the one I liked best.    And I sure as hell did that.    Tempest was my first play and I still like him the best.  I picked him because he looked like he was carrying a wallet that said "bad motherf***er" on it.  [pulp fiction, anyone?]    And to date he is the only alien.  That's kinda sweet in and of itself.  Its the freaking MULTIVERSE baby!  Alien lightning dude?  I am there.

Now then,  lets get into his PLAY!    The rest of this post will be at least 60% content, and only a 40% blend of gushing and snark.

With one-shots like Lightning Slash and Chain Lightning he can keep up with Ra in terms of raw damage output.  His Gene-bound shackles can give him a huge boost with damage to the villan, especially if he gets to combine that with Electrical storm or Vicious Cyclone.  Localized Hurricaine is a great card too and underused IMO.  People don't want to take the extra damage, which is understandable and even adviseable in some circumstanes.....  but with Localized Hurricaine you also get to be awesome.  and being awesome is what tempest is all about.

Beyond that, both Flash Flood and Ball Lightning are absolutely great cards to have in hand.    Tempests control over the game is in a very solid place,  Less than Visionary, but certainly quite good.  Into the Stratosphere wins games.  Pure and simple.    It is very similar to Visionary's Suggestion in many  ways.  It makes the villain play what you want them to play.  I was having so much trouble with the Matriarch and then I realized Tempest can just pop her mask into the stratosphere, giving you a full turn of respite, and possibly doing that several more times.    There is practically ALWAYS something that is a great mark for Into the Stratosphere, an absolutely top notch card.

And when you thought the awesome was done...  whats that?  Oh its Reclaim from the Deep!    Another of my favorite cards in his deck.  Too bad I already played into the Stratosphere last turn.  I guess I better just get it back.  And heck, while I'm at it,  Legacy, you'd love to get your Inspiring Presence back after that nasty Hugginn ran off with it wouldn't you?  Well just go ahead and plop it back on top of your deck and you'll have it out again in no time.  Ra?  Did you run out of Fire  Blasts?    Oh,  something tells me that you'll have another Hadoken lined up for us next turn....

And did I mention he's also the best healer out there,  if your team is you know,  dying on you or something?    No.  I don't think I did.

Ok.. that was probably at LEAST 50% gushing and snark.  Sorry,  I tried.    I couldn't help myself.  I'm done now.    For a little bit.    Tempest is the best hero EV-AR!!!!    Ok now I'm done.


"He robbed from the rich and he-
gave to the poor.
Stood up to the Man and he-
gave him what for. 
Our love for him now,
aint hard to explain,
the hero of Canton,
the man they call "Jayne""

McBehrer
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Interesting.

Here's the thing that makes Mister Fixer so cool, I think. (Like I mentioned, he is one of my favorites, if not my very favorite).

He does deal out consistent (if a bit low) damage, but that's not all he's for. He has different styles and tools for a multitude of situations. (plus, having Legacy, Visionary, and/or Ra to buff damage is always a plus) Also, all of his styles and stuff change ALL of the damage that he does. They don't give him additional powers. (I know I'm pointing out the obvious here. I'm not claiming you don't know this. Don't take it that way.) They basically change the nature of his inherent power, his one-shot, and any other damage he might do (like from infection).

For comparison, Let's look at Ra. He has Blazing Tornado and Staff of Ra. He can do a power for 4 fire damage to one target. He can play Fire Blast, which does one target 6 fire damage. But, he can never change it so that it also reduces the damage they do, or hits multiple targets, or changes damage type. It's always exactly the same, just with variable amounts of damage.

Now we compare this to Mister Fixer. His base power is to hit someone for 1. His one-shot, Charge, lets him hit someone for 2. But lets say you have, say, a bunch of birds to kill. You equip Jack Handle, and now his base power AND Charge have changed to target all non-hero targets. Have 2 targets with a lot of health? equip the crowbars. Now his base power is "hit 2 for 2," and Charge is "hit 2 for 3." Have someone who hits your teammates a lot? Use Hoist Chain. Now he does less damage. Have someone who hits you a lot? Use Pipe Wrench. Now you're protected for 1, and a bit stronger. Have a tendency to ALMOST kill things? Maybe they have crazy damage resistance? (Voss's minions, thugs, etc.) Use Tire Iron. It basically gives them -2 max HP when you hit them.

Then you can throw a style in there. Have an enemy with low health, but high damage resistance? Use Alternating Tiger Claw and tear them a superfluous new behind. Have someone like Spite, who has a low -- but annoying -- damage resistance? Use riveting crane and make them drop their shield. Want to just do more damage, or maybe they have immunity to a certain type? Use Grease Monkey Fist.

And don't forget, this applies to his power AS WELL as his one-shot, and any damage you may be forced to give yourself. Jack Handle is awesome when you are infected; you basically get 1-3 FREE ATTACKS against the boss at the start of each turn, which is not only irreducible but is probably buffed at least a couple times. Also it doesn't hit you, which is nice. It's also nice to use Jack Handle/Driving Mantis to redirect an enemy's attack to all non-hero targets.

Then go ahead and throw Harmony in there. That's another free +1 to damage. Bloody Knuckles for 2 more, at the risk of taking some more damage.

... So yeah. THAT is why I love "Blackie Chan," as I like to call him.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

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McBehrer wrote:
Interesting.

Also it doesn't hit you, which is nice. It's also nice to use Jack Handle/Driving Mantis to redirect an enemy's attack to all non-hero targets.

I agree that Mister Fixer is amazing for the same reasons you listed, but I don't think redirection would be modified by Jack Handle, as awesome as that would be.  :-\

McBehrer
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Actually, Chris said exactly the opposite. He said there's an invisible "instead" at the end of the sentence, so he doesn't hit himself. It says "whenever he would deal damage to a target," which includes himself.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

flamethrower49
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It works like that for the infection, sure.  It doesn't work if the damage is being redirected.  In that case, the source is something other than Mr. Fixer. 

flamethrower49
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Here's why I think of Mr. Fixer as among the lowest performing of the heroes.  What you say about him is true.  He has a bunch of tools and styles that inherently change his power.  That's cool.  He's got plenty of options... for dealing damage.  That's what all of his little tricks add up to.  There's a little bit of utility there - Driving Mantis, Riveting Crane, Pipe Wrench - but for the most part, his cards seem to go to essentially increasing his small amounts of damage.  Even Alternating Tiger Claw - against villains with one armor, you've just increased your damage by one.  Things don't usually have more than one armor.

Compare that to Tempest.  Tempest starts with a Jack Handle.  He can upgrade that with Grievous Hail Storm.  He can switch to two targets AND draw cards with Localized Hurricane.  And his one-shots do way more than just two damage, possibly while accomplishing something else. (Ball Lightning!)  Is he dealing irreducible damage, or redirecting stuff?  No.  Villain armor is a pain.  But in my experience, he can overcome damage reduction well enough, and he has the best armor of any character.  And, incidentally, a way to change his damage type, if you needed that.  (Otherworldly Resilience + Elemental Subwave Inducer.)

Salvage Yard and Grease Gun are pretty neat when you need them, but the latter only serves to put Fixer even more behind everybody else.  Ultimately, the inability to destroy ongoing and environment cards, and not have anything really dramatic to show for it (like Ra), makes him less exciting in my opinion.

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In my opinion, best and worst heroes are largely based on how well their decks exploit the framework of the game. For example, A hero with an innate damage power on their card automatically has more utility than one who does not, regardless of their deck. The goal of the game (until recently) has been to reduce the villain to 0 hit points. So innate damage is an advantage. The other areas I look for in a powerful hero are how theyt exploit their turn and how vulnerable they are. Does the hero have viable one-shots and good powers so they are always maximizing their turns? When I talk about vulnerability, I'm not just talking about hit points. The hit points in sentinels are close enough together that it really is not an issue. Dependence on multiple pieces of equipment and/or ongoing cards makes a hero very vulnerable, as well as not being able to deal with environmental or villain surprises.

So taking this into account, I was surprised to find that Tempest, Legacy, and Wraith my be the most powerful heroes.

Tempest: innate damage to multiple targets, highly useful one shots, ongoing/equipment cards that do not need multiple in play to synergize, and even damage reduction. He has relatively low starting hit points, but that's really his only minus. He also has one of the most versatile one shots in ball lighting which allows him to deal with annoyying cards and still deal damage. There is no choice and the card is useful even if one of the indiicidual effects is not.

Legacy: innate damage dealing (as long as their is one other hero in the party who has innate damage). Very little vulnerability as most of his cards are ongoing so not effected by equipment destroyers and most are powerful enough in their own right that he can run pretty lean if he has to. My only negative with him is that you can sometimes not draw any damage cards so he becomes a very passive damage soak and ends up buffing others. 

People think the wraith is the bees kness, and I agree to a point. However, I think there is enough of the "I love Batman" bias that rubs off on her to blind people. She does not deal innate damage, but does have innat damage redutcion to reduce her vulnerability. She has very useful one shotes and you will rarely, if ever, feel you don't have a one shot worth playing. She is somewhat vulnerable as she is equipment heavy, and she needs some synergy, but these are 2 card combos for the most part. While I do not think she is as good as Legacy or Tempest, she'd definitely up there.

So worst by my criteria are bunker, and absolute zero. For honorable mention, I will also include both heroes from rook city.

Absolute zero is the worst with no innate damage power, or for that matter even useful power. This makes him highly dependent on the draw. To even get going he needs 3 card combos and more but he can function with a few two card combos okay. He is heavily equipment dependent. Basically, he needs a ton of help from other heroes to keep him alive and make sure he can keep his equipment. If you do this, He can be a beast. The question is whether the sacrifices other players are making for abolutes zero are worth his late game butt kicking. I fall on the no side.

Bunker comes in second worst. He has no innate damage power, but does have card draw which can help him set up his desperately needed combos. He is very vulnerable due to equipment dependence, that makes it difficult to get or keep his 3 card combos going. He has limited ability to effect enviornment or villain cards other than through damage. his one shots are okay but not spectacular.

Both mr. fixer and Expatriatte fall into a similar category. Neether is bad but both have serious weaknesses. Mr. fixer is highly dependent on tools, and styles. A lack of either will neuter him and it is not uncommon to be sitting in a game without the right tool ofr the job, or sometimes without any tool. Yes, he deals innate damage, but that is his only power. So this means the second half of his turn will be devoted to one choice. His versatility is great often talked about, but he needs to have those versatile cards in had or in play. S he really has the potential to be versatile, but too many times I have seen that not pan out. Like absolute Zero, if he is coddled by the other heroes, he might do some righteous damage.

Expatriatte is dependent on her weapons. She can play two cards per turn, but you want to be careful with that as you can have all you stuff wiped out in one round and be stuck with nothing in your hand. On the other hand you her cards encourage you to play as many guns out as possible, so it can be a catch 22. Like Mr. Fxers tools, she is highly dependent on her guns. If no guns come out or gun retrieval, she does very little. On the other hand, she is probably one of the heores that can gain the most benefit from the do nothing and draw two cards as she can play two cards if needed. She also has some righteous damage dealing if necessary. While Ammo is nice, Expat. is not nearly as combo dependent as mr. fixer and can function well with only one gun in play. She has some ability to deal with environment cards and I do love the RPG vs. t-rex picture. It makes me wish there was an RPG equipment card.

That being said, Who do I enjoy playing the most? Ra, Expatriatte, and Tempest. Just because I think certain heroes are strictly better than others does not mean I enjoy playing them more. That's why you won't hear me complain about playing absolute zero. Sometimes I just want to play something different.

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I agree with most of your arguments Smilinbrax.  That's one of the reasons I really like Young Legacy.  She has all the benefits of Legacy, with an innate damage dealing power.  I agree that with games of 5 heroes, Papa Legacy will almost always result in more damage, but in games of 3 heroes, she's often better.  In games with 4 heroes, it's dependent on what your team make-up is.


"I'm not prone to hyperbole, but she is the Antichrist." - chwineka

McBehrer
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flamethrower49 wrote:
It works like that for the infection, sure.  It doesn't work if the damage is being redirected.  In that case, the source is something other than Mr. Fixer.

Oh, I see. Yeah, you're right. Never mind that then.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

awp832
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I've thought about Expatriette being in the bottom, but IMO she's still a cut above fixer, zero, and bunker, for a couple of reasons.

1.  Her guns are so prevalent that you're hardly ever without one, although sometimes not having the gun you want is a problem.
2.  For a power (and a power alone, without combos) Tactical Shotgun deals the most single target damage of any power in the game.
3.  Assault Rifle is extremely useful, especially when paired with ammo cards.

The thing I dont like about Epxatriette is that she practically seems like she's in a perpetual fight with her own deck.  Her two "best" cards are probably Speed Loading and Unload.  Both of which are totally at odds with each other.    Unload encourages you to play as many guns as you can, while Speed Loading actually stalls your deck.

Beyond that, her damage is pretty much all from powers,  she lacks good one shots (except for Unload, which is only a few cards) so that hurts a lot.  Against single targets, ammo is pretty unimpressive as Hollow Points are effectively "one-shot, deal a target 2 damage" which is kinda low.

She also had the very unfortunate circumstance of coming out in an expansion featuring almost entirely villans that she's not good against.  Spite and Plauge Rat don't enough targets in their decks to take advantage of many of Expatriettes cards [SMG, Assault Rifle, Shock Rounds, Hairtrigger Reflexes].    She is okay against Matriarch, but a lof of times the cards I mentioned aren't particularly useful as killing the birds is unhelpful.  And Chairman is so rediculously hard that even though Expatriette has enough targets to shoot, she still doesn't quite cut the mustard.... not that anybody really does.

Still, she has her place against all 4 villains from the base game, and she has a little environmental control in her deck too, which is nice to see  -something that Bunker, Zero, and Fixer lack-.


"He robbed from the rich and he-
gave to the poor.
Stood up to the Man and he-
gave him what for. 
Our love for him now,
aint hard to explain,
the hero of Canton,
the man they call "Jayne""

McBehrer
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flamethrower49 wrote:
Here's why I think of Mr. Fixer as among the lowest performing of the heroes.  What you say about him is true.  He has a bunch of tools and styles that inherently change his power.  That's cool.  He's got plenty of options... for dealing damage.  That's what all of his little tricks add up to.  There's a little bit of utility there - Driving Mantis, Riveting Crane, Pipe Wrench - but for the most part, his cards seem to go to essentially increasing his small amounts of damage.  Even Alternating Tiger Claw - against villains with one armor, you've just increased your damage by one.  Things don't usually have more than one armor.

Compare that to Tempest.  Tempest starts with a Jack Handle.  He can upgrade that with Grievous Hail Storm.  He can switch to two targets AND draw cards with Localized Hurricane.  And his one-shots do way more than just two damage, possibly while accomplishing something else. (Ball Lightning!)  Is he dealing irreducible damage, or redirecting stuff?  No.  Villain armor is a pain.  But in my experience, he can overcome damage reduction well enough, and he has the best armor of any character.  And, incidentally, a way to change his damage type, if you needed that.  (Otherworldly Resilience + Elemental Subwave Inducer.)

Salvage Yard and Grease Gun are pretty neat when you need them, but the latter only serves to put Fixer even more behind everybody else.  Ultimately, the inability to destroy ongoing and environment cards, and not have anything really dramatic to show for it (like Ra), makes him less exciting in my opinion.

Ok, so if I get you correctly, you're saying that Tempest is inherently better than Fixer most, if not all, of the time. Now, of course I'm not saying that he's NEVER the better pick, but consider the following scenario.

You're up against Voss, and he's on his starting side, on advanced mode. Both Guards are out. Also there's a Twisting Back Alley.

You can have whatever setup you want going into this, but since we're just comparing these 2, you can't rely on any other heroes to buff or deal damage. Tempest really can't do anything helpful here. He's at -4 damage, and is pretty much completely neutered. He only even has a couple options anyway, and none of them are particularly helpful. He can use lightning slash for a whopping 1 damage to one of the guards. He could use Into the Stratosphere, so he's only at -3, but even then the guard will just play again next turn. You could use flash flood, but you'd still be at -3. Even if you were to use Localized Hurricane, that's 0 damage.

Fixer, on the other hand, has not only the ability to buff himself multiple times, but also to completely ignore damage reduction or nullify it for others. There are multiple different options he has here, but he can easily take out both guards and possibly even hurt Voss a little. Let's say, Jack Handle, Tiger Claw, Harmony, and either Bloody Knuckles or -- better yet -- Charge. In one case, you do 4 irreducible across the board. In the other, you do 3 and then 2. Either way, you definitely kill the guards -- and any other minions out -- and hit Voss for 5. May not seem like much, but compared to Tempest in the exact same circumstances, it's kind of a lot.

Also, I just thought of something. Not very related, but a little. Against Spite, you could abuse Bloody Knuckles like nobody's business. Let's say you're using Hoist Chain, Riveting Crane, and Harmony. You play Bloody Knuckles for +2 to damage, then hit Spite. Not only does he now do -1 damage, but he has also completely lost his once-a-turn damage reduction, leaving the rest of your team to pummel him uninhibited, regardless of what the environment says. Then, at the start of Spite's turn, he sends Bloody Knuckles back to your hand, getting rid of the +2 damage he would otherwise deal you, and allowing you to play it again next turn.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

flamethrower49
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Yeah.  A ton of armor on everything would be one of those situations where Mr. Fixer, with Alternating Tiger Claw, can rule the day.  I don't seem to find myself in those situations all that often, but more to the point, when I'm in that situation, I more often find Fixer futzing around with the entirely wrong tool and style, with the right one nowhere nearby, and very few good ways to get to it/them.  Tempest, by contrast, has enough card drawing to usually have the right answer at hand. 

I can see the potential Fixer has, but it never seems to play out in practice.  I don't know if I'm playing him wrong, or not playing him in the right situations, or what, but he just doesn't impress me. 

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McBehrer wrote:

flamethrower49 wrote:
Here's why I think of Mr. Fixer as among the lowest performing of the heroes.  What you say about him is true.  He has a bunch of tools and styles that inherently change his power.  That's cool.  He's got plenty of options... for dealing damage.  That's what all of his little tricks add up to.  There's a little bit of utility there - Driving Mantis, Riveting Crane, Pipe Wrench - but for the most part, his cards seem to go to essentially increasing his small amounts of damage.  Even Alternating Tiger Claw - against villains with one armor, you've just increased your damage by one.  Things don't usually have more than one armor.

Compare that to Tempest.  Tempest starts with a Jack Handle.  He can upgrade that with Grievous Hail Storm.  He can switch to two targets AND draw cards with Localized Hurricane.  And his one-shots do way more than just two damage, possibly while accomplishing something else. (Ball Lightning!)  Is he dealing irreducible damage, or redirecting stuff?  No.  Villain armor is a pain.  But in my experience, he can overcome damage reduction well enough, and he has the best armor of any character.  And, incidentally, a way to change his damage type, if you needed that.  (Otherworldly Resilience + Elemental Subwave Inducer.)

Salvage Yard and Grease Gun are pretty neat when you need them, but the latter only serves to put Fixer even more behind everybody else.  Ultimately, the inability to destroy ongoing and environment cards, and not have anything really dramatic to show for it (like Ra), makes him less exciting in my opinion.

Ok, so if I get you correctly, you're saying that Tempest is inherently better than Fixer most, if not all, of the time. Now, of course I'm not saying that he's NEVER the better pick, but consider the following scenario.

You're up against Voss, and he's on his starting side, on advanced mode. Both Guards are out. Also there's a Twisting Back Alley.

Fanatic with a Final Dive and Tempest with an Into the Stratosphere is a smaller combo that can get a group out of that situation.  Fixer is fun, but this again relies on a lot of cards and a lot of buildup.  Must his usefulness rely on such heinous circumstances?  That is a pretty specialized situation to be in.  I'll give the guy credit where credit is due, but that's still a lot of cards to take out two guards.  Irreducible damage is where it's at, but I don't understand why the guy needs to start out with a puny one damage power.


Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.

flamethrower49
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So I know I said that we shouldn't evaluate heroes based only on their team or against their villain, but the situation you describe is exactly the kind of situation that it takes a team of heroes to overcome.  It's cool that Mr. Fixer is *capable* of taking them down all by himself, if he gets the dream setup for the situation.  But far more likely, this will be solved by a Flash Flood from Tempest, followed by a couple hits from Haka and Wraith to take down one guard, followed by a Fire Blast from Ra to take down the second one.  (To pull a random configuration and play order out of nowhere.)

dragonlordged
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I know there's a villain in the next set that you'll really want Fixer's irreducible damage on... unless it's been changed since I played it last.  That's one of the disadvantages of being friends with a playtester but not being one yourself.  And on another note, it's really a question of a hybrid character versus a pure character.  Tempest is a pure character:  he's got a niche, and he knows where it is.  Fixer's going to be worse in that niche than Tempest almost all of the time.  That's good.  Ra also has a niche.  Fixer's worse in that niche too.  The only niche Fixer has all to himself is irreducible damage, but that doesn't mean he's not a decent-to-good choice in those situations where you might want Tempest, but you might want Ra, for example Citizen Dawn or Chairman Pike or Omnitron (people with lots of high health minions).

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Firstly, Fixer isn't going to have irreduceable damage all to himself for long.

Secondly, Fixer is still at a -1.    Voss advanced mode is decrease damage dealt by heroes by 1.    Decrease...    not reduce. 

Thirdly, if you get into that situation either something REALLY unusual happened, or you played bad.  2 gene-bound guards and a twisting back alleys in play at the same time?  How did you come to that?  Why didn't you kill off the first gene-bound guard as soon as he came out?  Maybe they came out off of a Forced Deployment.  In that case,  if you knew that Forced Deployment was about to bring gene-bound guards back into play, why didn't you destroy Twisting Back Alleys on the environment turn when you had the chance?

One reason might be that you had a plan to deal with it.  And these are team plans.  Maybe Tempest will Flash Flood the Twisting Back Alleys away, leaving everyone at only -3 damage, then Wraith can drop the first guard to 1 hp with Razor Ordinance and microtargeting computer.  Then Haka can use a Haka of Battle to add 3 damage, kill the high HP guard with the first hit, and finish off the low hp guard with the back end of his Tahia.  You're out of a bad situation.

As far as "hyrid character vs pure character"  I read that as "character with a point, vs one that doesn't have one".    To put it more succinctly, name another character that doesnt have a "pure" role.    What you call hybrid,  I call undirected.   

Because what I would call hybrid is somebody who can do a lot of things well....  to me....  Tempest is the most hybrid character there is.


"He robbed from the rich and he-
gave to the poor.
Stood up to the Man and he-
gave him what for. 
Our love for him now,
aint hard to explain,
the hero of Canton,
the man they call "Jayne""

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Actually, no. Decrease and reduce are the same thing. Just a different word; one of those inconsistent wordings they will probably change for Enhanced Edition.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

awp832
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fair enough, but the other 3 paragraphs still stand.


"He robbed from the rich and he-
gave to the poor.
Stood up to the Man and he-
gave him what for. 
Our love for him now,
aint hard to explain,
the hero of Canton,
the man they call "Jayne""

dragonlordged
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Bunker, Haka, and Fanatic would classify as hybrid characters to me.  All three of them have two niches that they can fill, just not particularly well.  Both Bunker and Haka can fill the damage role, but can also fill the tanking role (as very few others can) while Fanatic has such a variety of cards I'm really not sure what role to fit her in at all.  Don't get me wrong, I like playing as her and I think she's got some pretty cool stuff going there, she's just not sure what role she really wants to fill.

awp, somebody else is getting irreducible damage?  This is news to me.  Still, are we discussing favorite heroes now or favorite heroes in the future?  I don't think a future change that we don't all know about should be a mark against Fixer.

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Two things.  First: I LOVE this conversation.  I'm not going to jump in here and argue with anyone, as these are all opinions and awesome and this is EXACTLY the sort of discussion I love seeing.  You guys are great.

Second:

awp832 wrote:
Ice:  Ice caters to..... [blantantly sexist comments ahead.  I apologize.  Really I do.  I'm better than this.  But heck, I'm already married so, why not...]    gamer girls.  Seriously.  I don't know what it is.  Maybe its the "ice-princess" thing,  but I've noticed female gamers pretty much always have Ice as their element of choice.  Maybe its because their gamer boyfriends or, in the case of my sister when we were kids -their gamer brothers-  tend to choose fire or lightning and they want to be different.    Maybe the blame falls entirely on Shiva from Final Fantasy.  Why do you have to be so sexy and awesome?    Ice:  Because you want to blow stuff up and look GREAT doing it.

Ice is my favorite.  It always has been.  Fire, as you accurately pointed out, is damage and more damage, and usually to a single target.  Lightning is damage and more damage to other targets with nifty options.  Ice?  Ice is CONTROL.  Slow and Stop piggyback on cold damage.  Ice: for those who want to control their opponents and then obliterate them.  And, as you might have guessed, I am not a gamer girl.

Not that it has anything to do with SotM - just weighing in.


"Your goodness must have some edge to it — else it is none."
 - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Ice is nice, but Lightning is frightening.  Also Fire.

(In all seriousness, though...Tempest deals Cold, Lightning, AND Projectile damage!  Or any damage you want with the ESE.  Love it!)


Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.

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Ah well, there are always exceptions to the rule...  Although you are right about Ice often having rider effects.  I wasn't really thinking of that at the time. 

We don't really have an ice character in SotM.  I mean,  yes, there is Zero,  but he relies on fire just as much as he does on cold.  And he's missing the "rider effects" that you so observantly point out.  I mean I understand if a hero was too much like Zero it wouldn't be worth making,  but I don't think simply having the same "element" qualifies.  I mean heck, we have Wraith, Bunker, Expatriette, and 1/2 of Tempest who all do Projectile damage.  Legacy (original) and Haka are both melee. 

Man it sure would be....  cool  if SotM had something like that.    I bet a lot of people would be interested in buying it..    ;D


"He robbed from the rich and he-
gave to the poor.
Stood up to the Man and he-
gave him what for. 
Our love for him now,
aint hard to explain,
the hero of Canton,
the man they call "Jayne""

flamethrower49
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For what it's worth, I'm an Ice guy too. 

And Zero has one "rider" effect, if you will.  That is exactly the purpose of Subzero Atmosphere.

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Christopher wrote:
Second:

awp832 wrote:
Ice:  Ice caters to..... [blantantly sexist comments ahead.  I apologize.  Really I do.  I'm better than this.  But heck, I'm already married so, why not...]    gamer girls.  Seriously.  I don't know what it is.  Maybe its the "ice-princess" thing,  but I've noticed female gamers pretty much always have Ice as their element of choice.  Maybe its because their gamer boyfriends or, in the case of my sister when we were kids -their gamer brothers-  tend to choose fire or lightning and they want to be different.    Maybe the blame falls entirely on Shiva from Final Fantasy.  Why do you have to be so sexy and awesome?    Ice:  Because you want to blow stuff up and look GREAT doing it.

Ice is my favorite.  It always has been.  Fire, as you accurately pointed out, is damage and more damage, and usually to a single target.  Lightning is damage and more damage to other targets with nifty options.  Ice?  Ice is CONTROL.  Slow and Stop piggyback on cold damage.  Ice: for those who want to control their opponents and then obliterate them.  And, as you might have guessed, I am not a gamer girl.

Not that it has anything to do with SotM - just weighing in.

My wife and I are the same way: I'm all water/ice all the time, and she's 100% fire*.

*Unless we're talking Avatar, in which case she's a huge Toph fangirl.

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flamethrower49 wrote:
For what it's worth, I'm an Ice guy too. 

And Zero has one "rider" effect, if you will.  That is exactly the purpose of Subzero Atmosphere.

Oh, and Fueled Freeze, to some extent.  It's a control option, anyway, and one of Zero's few. 

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Christopher wrote:
Two things.  First: I LOVE this conversation.  I'm not going to jump in here and argue with anyone, as these are all opinions and awesome and this is EXACTLY the sort of discussion I love seeing.  You guys are great.

Second:

awp832 wrote:
Ice:  Ice caters to..... [blantantly sexist comments ahead.  I apologize.  Really I do.  I'm better than this.  But heck, I'm already married so, why not...]    gamer girls.  Seriously.  I don't know what it is.  Maybe its the "ice-princess" thing,  but I've noticed female gamers pretty much always have Ice as their element of choice.  Maybe its because their gamer boyfriends or, in the case of my sister when we were kids -their gamer brothers-  tend to choose fire or lightning and they want to be different.    Maybe the blame falls entirely on Shiva from Final Fantasy.  Why do you have to be so sexy and awesome?    Ice:  Because you want to blow stuff up and look GREAT doing it.

Ice is my favorite.  It always has been.  Fire, as you accurately pointed out, is damage and more damage, and usually to a single target.  Lightning is damage and more damage to other targets with nifty options.  Ice?  Ice is CONTROL.  Slow and Stop piggyback on cold damage.  Ice: for those who want to control their opponents and then obliterate them.  And, as you might have guessed, I am not a gamer girl.

Not that it has anything to do with SotM - just weighing in.

It's strange that you say that, Because I feel like absolutely zero is controlled more than controlling. As I noted, His requirements to really kick in make it more likely the villain cards will decide his fate then he will decide the villain's. Compared to visionary, who I see as a control freak's dream, AZ is a bit limited.

I did some quick and dirty math using a mana calculator for Magic, so it's based on a 7 card draw. My calculations extend out to the first 3 turns. The plus side is that by the end of turn 3 (assuming a draw of one a turn), you are 99.9% likely to draw 1 module or a card that will get you a module. You also have a 67% chance of getting 2-3 modules, which I would consider the sweet spot as getting 4+ modules is taking up space for other cards. In a third of games, you will end up with no modules or too many in your hand. So, granting you get both modules out and into play and not get stuck with two of one type, your combo will be ready turn 3 or 4.

At that point you need a power or one shot that can deal damage. There are 5 damage dealing powers in the deck of which only 2 can deal damage on their own. The other three require AZ to take fire damage at some time since the end of his last turn (and since it's a power, he can't use any other power that deals fire to him to trigger it). This means that another hero needs to oblige him, the villain/environement just happens to deal him fire, or he needs one of his own one shots to deal him fire.  AZ just happens to have 4 one shots in his deck that will deal him fire. One of you probability hounds can probably do a much better job here than I can, but just eyeballing it, AZ has a very inconcsistent deck. Other heroes can help him out, but then he is dragging others down.

There are only 4 control cards that I see in the deck, 2 subzero atmospheres (which is my favorite card in his deck), and 2 fueled freezes which destroy ongoing cards. Since the new trend is villains that have very few ongoing cards and many more custom named cards, Fueled freezes are much more likely to be used on hero ongoings than villain ones. 

Sorry if I went overboard on the analysis, but AZ really bugs me in that I find him very interesting, but I generally don't get him to work. I think this may be because his cards really do not synergize as well with themselves as you would expect.

I apologize for going back to Magic for comparison, but a combo deck is generally set up to find and get the combo out as quickly as possible. In sentinels you don't generally want that, as a too finely tuned deck will get stale over time. However, in the case of AZ I might make an exception  because you only get to play a max of one card per turn. Thus, a combo requires many turns to set up with many opportunities to have it scrapped before then. You can tell that was recognized early by how many fetch cards (from the deck and trash) there are in his deck.

I Love the thermodynamic back story and intent behind AZ, and I actually like most of the cards in his deck. I just think that when you put it all togeher and play with it, that it doesn't gel as well as it could.   

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I have some anecdotes that are part bragging about a new player I brought in, and part relevant to this thread.  This will be long.  :)

I started a three player game against regular Dawn in Atlantis, with Visionary, Tempest, and Bunker.  The new player was Tempest (because, he said, Lightning).  Visionary and Tempest, both of whom I report as all-powerful, were unable to get their ongoing destruction, so Dawn laughed it up with two copies of Return with the Dawn.  We were able to kill all the minions every round, and they weren't hurting us, but we couldn't make any headway.  Then Citizen Truth came out, and it was pretty downhill from there. 

Tempest eventually cleared the ongoings, but once she started drawing the damaging minions, she wiped us out but good.  Tempest and Visionary spent most of the game with no hands to speak of, between multiple Blinding Blasts and Phosphorescent Chambers.  They had stronger options than many in that situation, however.  On Visionary's turn, she would Enlighten Tempest, who would typically find one of the two cards applicable to the situation, due to his great versatility.  It wasn't enough, of course, but it was a good thing in a bad situation.  Bunker, by contrast, built a strong array from the start and was instrumental in mowing down the early minions.  However, once the Devastating Aurora came, he mostly became a spectator.  Not because he didn't have the cards, but because he didn't have the time.

Well, the newbie wanted a rematch, and we were joined by two more players.  The newbie picked Absolute Zero (because, he said, Ice!).  He was even more intrigued when he read Zero's base power.  We ended up, fairly randomly, playing the Freedom Five, minus Bunker plus Ra, since Bunker was dead.  Rematches rule.  Anyway, since we had five, we were playing Advanced Dawn. 

Newbie caught on to Zero right away, and probably played him better than I do - that is to say, aggressively.  On his second turn, with the Isothermic Transducer in play, and no prior knowledge of the Sun God's deck, he asked if Ra could deal him three fire damage to help finish off Citizen Truth.  Ra was stunned, but obliged with an Inferno, which, funnelled through Zero and amped by Galvanize, killed Truth, and dealt two to all the other citizens. 

The combined might of the Freedom Five minus Bunker plus Ra was able to take Dawn down without flipping her.  We had a fabulous plan to bury her in the volcano for 26 damage, but it never materialized, because +3 damage to all attacks kinda took care of the situation.

So yeah, a newbie made me rethink Absolute Zero.  Two things worked for him here - Ra, Legacy, and Wraith were in the game, and nothing interfered with his capabilities.  Ra could shoot him with fire when needed (and didn't use either Flesh of the Sun God or Imbue Fire), Legacy had the buffs, and Wraith used Infrared Eyepiece and dodged Devastating Aurora.  Ergo, nothing killed his stuff, allowing him to deal a truly dizzying amount of damage, just between the two modules, Legacy, and his one shots.  Does this make me think of him as good?  ...  Well, it certainly makes me think we used good teamwork.  :)

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flamethrower49 wrote:
Newbie caught on to Zero right away, and probably played him better than I do - that is to say, aggressively.

Playing Absolute Zero is all about being ruthless, especially to yourself.  You don't really need those HP.  Ask anyone who's played with me.

flamethrower49 wrote:
On his second turn, with the Isothermic Transducer in play, and no prior knowledge of the Sun God's deck, he asked if Ra could deal him three fire damage to help finish off Citizen Truth.  Ra was stunned, but obliged with an Inferno, which, funnelled through Zero and amped by Galvanize, killed Truth, and dealt two to all the other citizens. 

YES.  Phenomenal.  Bravo!


"Your goodness must have some edge to it — else it is none."
 - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Ra can work very well with Absolute Zero (assuming you don't Embued Fire (at least not too long), as that can result in a quick Absolute Zero death), and more so with Legacy, Visionary, and/or Fanatic (with Legacy improving damage dealt, Visionary controlling damage types, and Fanatic Embolding Absolute Zero (allowing him to use Thermal Shockwave before using Coolant Blast, for that extra oomph) as well as occasionally using Absolution to fuel more fire).  Typically, my plan, assuming I'm in a situation allowing me to keep out played cards, is to end up with at least both modules and Coolant Blast.  When dealt fire damage, I check to see how low the HP is.  If too low, I use healing.  If not too low, I retaliate.  Then, Coolant Blast allows either double damage (plus any modifiers at the time), or single damage plus a net of not taking any damage (plus modifers).  I haven't played with him much recently, only because I tend to play other heroes that I never played much when I first got the game.


Do good, I? No! Evil anon I deliver, I maim nine more hero men in Miami, sanitary sword a-tuck, carol I. Lo! Rack, cut a drowsy rat in Aswan. I gas nine more hero men in Saginaw. Reviled I, Nona, live on. I do... o, God!

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