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Best and worst heroes?

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Vyolynce
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Ronway wrote:
Technically Demoralize reduces the max HP by 1

Yes, but without DR there are only a few cards that notice the difference. I can't speak for how EE changes the rules, of course.

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Ronway wrote:
Technically Demoralize reduces the max HP by 1, and technically Enhanced Edition Demoralize won't do either of those.

!!!

What!


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All cards that changed maximum HP have been reworded.  In the case of most cards that increased maximum HP, now it restores that much HP when the card is played.  In the case of some cards, instead of increasing or decreasing maximum HP, it restores or deals damage at the start of that player's turn.


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"Demoralize" isn't even the right word anymore.

I think it should be called

Highlight this to get spoiler wrote:
PSYCHIC STORM

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Heh, nice. :D (Both the use of the "spoiler" and the name. ;) )


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I really like keeping the name and flavor of Demoralization. I picture it less of her actively assaulting their mind, and rather with soft whispers whispering dark things and worst fears.

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robalan wrote:
I really like keeping the name and flavor of Demoralization. I picture it less of her actively assaulting their mind, and rather with soft whispers whispering dark things and worst fears.

Absolutely! Hence the art.


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Whenever I played Demoralization on Citizen Dawn I tend to picture The Visionary saying "haha, you're daughter doesn't have the gift but still can wipe out your entire army."

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so... percentage wise, how many of the cards from the base game have been changed, effect-wise?


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Ronway
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Really wasn't too many cards that changed. Everything in the Errata were the bulk of it. Really the only things that changed effect wise were the increasing and decreasing of max HP. Which JayMann already explained. Though almost all the Environment cards were changed (mostly just shortened) so that way the art could fit on there aswell.

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McBehrer wrote:
so... percentage wise, how many of the cards from the base game have been changed, effect-wise?

I have been working on a very thorough answer to that question this week.  Expect satisfaction within the hour.


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Satisfaction granted. I'm reading up now.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

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Who-whadda-what-now?


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Blossercubbles wrote:
Who-whadda-what-now?

Christopher posted a thread in the Rules and Gameplay area. :D


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Rabit wrote:

Blossercubbles wrote:
Who-whadda-what-now?

Christopher posted a thread in the Rules and Gameplay area. :D

Aha! You are a true warrior of the three kingdoms, Rabit.


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This is definitely not the order for my favorites. This is also just my opinion:

Best

Tempest (Does it all)

Wraith (Impromptu Invention and Infrared Eyepiece best two cards in the game)

Visionary (Plays at a different level than other heroes)

Legacy (Everyone is happy to see Legacy)

Nightmist (Far superior version of Absolute Zero)

Agent Ardept (Don't actually have much play time with him)

Unity (My favorite hero)

Haka (Good offense and good defense)

Ra (All he does is damage)

Tachyon (Inconsistent damage, but I love the flavor of her deck. I feel like a speedster)

Fanatic (Another deck with good flavor. Everything she has is great, but only at the right time. Her personality is being situational)

Bunker (Modes are just okay)

Absolute Zero (Had to make a house rule to be able to enjoy him)

Expatriette (No draw power means I can only use her innate power twice)

Mr. Fixer (Being okay at everything means not being good at anything)

Worst

 

 

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My group likes tank characters.  It fits into our style, the games are long but we stablize fast and then build until we have the game well in hand.  Because of this Haka is extremely popular.  His healing and damage reduction have been invaluable, not to mention Ground Pound has won games more than once.  Legacy is usually the alternate Haka although I would say its just because people like Haka more, not that he is better.

Any character that has a choice of healing or damage such as AZ and Nightmist are very popular as well although they are much more susceptible to losing equipment or ongoing cards.

Tempest is crazy good.  In fact he has been so good in our games that some people won't play him anymore.

Visionary people are all over the place on.  Everyone recognizes her value but I wouldn't say she is popular to play.

Perosonally I like Fanatic even though she doesn't fit our group style as much.  I like her much more with the Promo version.

Expatriette has been the only diasappointment.  Basically (in our opinion) we feel she is a pure damage character that doesn't do great damage.  I think the might be the lack of one-shot damage cards.  For us Haka usually puts out more damage while tanking and Ra, Wraith, and Tempest just blow her away.  This has been unfortunate as we really like her flavor.

 

 

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We had a game once where a combination of Legacy, Ra, and Expatriette (there was a fourth character but I can't remember who it was) totally kicked Gloomweaver's arse (or rather, the arses of all his followers) without actively having to do very much - Legacy buffed everyone, Ra had buffed himself and had Flame barrier out, while Expatriette had Hairtrigger Reflexes. So a cultist would come out and get shot for two or three damage instantly (buffed Hairtrigger). Then said cultist would deal some damage, starting with Ra, whose Flame Barrier would finish off said cultist, bringing out a Zombie...who'd promptly get insta-killed by Hairtrigger Reflexes :D.


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i think that some of us should start writting down just how much damage we do each game with various characters.

 

I have a suspicion that Expat does good - possibly even better - damage than others, but being that its in small formats of 2, 3 at a time it doesnt /seem/ like it given the big hits some other characterscan dish out.


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I had a game where Legacy and Expatriette almost totally invalidated a Forced Deployment. Expatriette killed something like 9 Minions with Hairtrigger Reflexes. Only the Guards and the Soldiers survived.

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Don't the Guards give all Minions soak, or do they just have it themselves? I know First Lieutenant Tamar gives all of them +1 soak but of course, he's not a Minion.

Anyway, yeah, Expatriette is, I think, a pretty good, steady damage dealer, and with lots of options in order to change her damage type, hit multiple targets, or get past soak by using a more powerful weapon. She could pretty much solo-kill everything if assisted by various effects from people like Legacy and the Adept, letting her get more stuff out and deal more damage, and so on. I suppose it depends who you're fighting.


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I think the terms best and worst don't truly fit here. Simply because every hero has their use during any fight. It's more a favorite/least favorite kinda thing.

My personal favorites are Legacy, Tempst, and Ra. Tempest is simply so versatile that he does a little of everything, but that same strength sometimes causes him to have cards he really doesn't need at the time. Legacy is just a good tank and Ra can make toast out of nearly any villian.

My least favorite are AA and AZ. Not saying they are bad heroes, they just refuse to work for me. That and AZ has the one card I have not found a use for yet. The one where he switches the start and end of turn effects for villian cards. I see no real use for it.


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It doesn't switch them, it moves the end of turn to the start of turn. It helps with villains like Voss whose minions act at the end of turn giving you a turn extra to deal with the before they pummel you.


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Kiric wrote:
 That and AZ has the one card I have not found a use for yet. The one where he switches the start and end of turn effects for villian cards. I see no real use for it.

It delays things, when the chairman plays a underboss, he wouldn't bring a minion from the discard pile until the start of his next turn, so if brought out soon enough it can make some battles a bit painless, not much because some things cant be killed in one round.

 

I used to think it was useless too, I used to just use it if our group thought we would need select ongoing destruction.

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Ameena wrote:

... First Lieutenant Tamar ..., he's not a Minion. ...

 

She


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Really? How can you tell? I'm guessing it's in some fluff text somewhere that I just haven't read...probably at the bottom of Tamar's card, lol.


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Mind if I point out that Tamar happens to have breast? She is also the only one out of the three Thorathian to have visible hair, long hair at that. My speculation is that for whatever reason men can't grow hair, or maybe their skin tight spandex cover it and they just keep it short.

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boxwood wrote:

 

Kiric wrote:
 That and AZ has the one card I have not found a use for yet. The one where he switches the start and end of turn effects for villian cards. I see no real use for it.

 

It delays things, when the chairman plays a underboss, he wouldn't bring a minion from the discard pile until the start of his next turn, so if brought out soon enough it can make some battles a bit painless, not much because some things cant be killed in one round. I used to think it was useless too, I used to just use it if our group thought we would need select ongoing destruction.

 

I had a similar situation with Ra's Glare card (destroy target with 2 or less hp), simply because Ra can normally deal much more than two damage, it wasn't useful... until I took him against Apostate and started to burn the relics. 

 

Each character is a lot different in use and purpose.  Adept should never be the damage dealer and Haka is never support, but that doesn't make one better than the other, just better in one situation or another.  The reason I think that Fixer takes a lot of flack is because he looks like a damage dealer and just isn't.  Fixer either plays minion control or mini-tank when I play with him.  He's never really there to take out the boss.  Like-wise, when I play Ra, he normally targets the boss so directly, I could care less about minions except for collateral damage. 

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Ah okay...I suppose I never looked at her pic that carefully, and anyway she's an alien - Tempest could be said to have long "hair" in the form of those tentacle thingys hanging down his head ;).


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Ameena wrote:

Don't the Guards give all Minions soak, or do they just have it themselves?

They do, but you can bring the Minions out in whatever order you want, and Expatriette kills them as they come out, so I brought all the Minions that weren't Guards or Soldiers out first so they wouldn't get the benefit of the damage reduction.

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lynkfox wrote:

i think that some of us should start writting down just how much damage we do each game with various characters. 

The only difficulty with this is when you're playing against Akash'bhuta. I was in a game earlier this week playing Nightmist where I did a total of 93 points of damage with one Oblivion, not counting the 2 each of the heroes took. Doing killing damage to 6 limbs that dealt 59 damage directly skews the numbers quite a bit. Still, that was the single most damaging attack I've ever done.

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Jhuntin1 wrote:

 

lynkfox wrote:
i think that some of us should start writting down just how much damage we do each game with various characters. 

 

The only difficulty with this is when you're playing against Akash'bhuta. I was in a game earlier this week playing Nightmist where I did a total of 93 points of damage with one Oblivion, not counting the 2 each of the heroes took. Doing killing damage to 6 limbs that dealt 59 damage directly skews the numbers quite a bit. Still, that was the single most damaging attack I've ever done.

 

The thing about that is NightMist isn't dealing the damage to Akash'Bhuta when limbs are destroyed, it is Akash"Bhuta dealing damage to herself. So that wouldn't really have an impact if we recorded damage dealt from each character.

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Ronway wrote:

 

Jhuntin1 wrote:
 lynkfox wrote:
i think that some of us should start writting down just how much damage we do each game with various characters.  

 

The only difficulty with this is when you're playing against Akash'bhuta. I was in a game earlier this week playing Nightmist where I did a total of 93 points of damage with one Oblivion, not counting the 2 each of the heroes took. Doing killing damage to 6 limbs that dealt 59 damage directly skews the numbers quite a bit. Still, that was the single most damaging attack I've ever done.

 The thing about that is NightMist isn't dealing the damage to Akash'Bhuta when limbs are destroyed, it is Akash"Bhuta dealing damage to herself. So that wouldn't really have an impact if we recorded damage dealt from each character.

 

that

 

record it before double ups (including Bonus damage, from like Galvanize and so on)


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Galvanize damage should, of course, be credited to Legacy.  Which is one thing that stands to make this somewhat complicated.  But I'll give it a try, when I remember, and have a bunch of extra time.  Only beatdowns for me today.  (Man, some of you are really looking forward to Iron Legacy.  Some of you aren't.)

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flamethrower49 wrote:

Galvanize damage should, of course, be credited to Legacy.  Which is one thing that stands to make this somewhat complicated.  But I'll give it a try, when I remember, and have a bunch of extra time.  Only beatdowns for me today.  (Man, some of you are really looking forward to Iron Legacy.  Some of you aren't.)

Does this mean Ra's +1 should also go to him? Or Visionary's +1/-1 card?

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I'm a little surprised to see people so down on Mister Fixer and Expatriette, especially in comparison to Argent Adept and Absolute Zero.

The nice thing about Fixer and Expatriette is that while they, like most heroes, are reliant on Ongoings and Environment cards, they both are able to recover easily.  Fixer needs three cards to function at a solid level:  a Stance, a Tool, and Harmony...and Harmony can even be forgotten in a pinch.  If the field is wiped by, say, Devastating Aurora, Fixer is back up and dealing damage within 2 rounds.  

Expatriette works similarly, as she can throw down cards out of her hand faster than almost any other character.  If she's out of cards she's pretty screwed, but then again, who isn't?    And for crowd control, she's right up there with Tempest--Hairtrigger Reflexes, the Assault Rifle, and Shock Rounds see to that.

The thing that frustrates me most with AZ is the fact that for the turns that you're trying to get set up--your Calibrator, your Focused Apertures, etc.--you're not doing anything worthwhile.  You might be healing yourself, or dealing damage 1:1, but it's just not worth the trouble.  Argent Adept has much the same trouble, but his comes in balancing Instruments and Songs.  Too much of one leads to not enough of the other, and a happy medium is hard to maintain.  

I readily agree that the potential of AZ and AA are much higher than almost any other hero, but those turns taken while getting set up come close to being wasted turns.  Heroes like MF, Expatriette, and even Bunker (if you can throw down Upgrade mode quickly) get on their feet much faster than certain other heroes, which means that damage output comes out faster, even if it's at lower values.

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The Adept can be useful with just one card, though - one song, any song, and he can do something. And if he starts with no songs in hand, he's got several copies of Arcane Cadence which have a chance of being in the starting hand (and which in turn have a pretty high chance to turn up at least one song when played). Okay, so one song may not be hugely useful, but it depends on the song, and which other heroes are present, and which villain is being fought. Or even which Environment you're in (Sarabande of Destruction versus the Self-Destruct Sequence? Yes please!) ;).


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Agreed, and that seems to be the biggest difference between him and AZ at our table:

Where Absolute Zero needs a very specific set of cards out in order to Anything without killing himself, Argent Adept can be functional from the start, even those his individual functions are generally lesser than that of any other given power.

My overarching point, though, was that during all that set-up time where AA and AZ are prepping huge combos of cards, Expatriette and Fixer are actually fulfilling their intended purpose--crowd control and damage.

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PlatinumWarlock wrote:

 Agreed, and that seems to be the biggest difference between him and AZ at our table:Where Absolute Zero needs a very specific set of cards out in order to Anything without killing himself, Argent Adept can be functional from the start, even those his individual functions are generally lesser than that of any other given power.My overarching point, though, was that during all that set-up time where AA and AZ are prepping huge combos of cards, Expatriette and Fixer are actually fulfilling their intended purpose--crowd control and damage.

 

The key words I notice is "without killing himself", AZ is all about killing himself. As pointed out in another topic is he really only needs two cards to function as well as others. Isothermic will always without a doubt be one of those cards. The other can be any card other than Null-Point and Cyro Chamber. Then he'll be more than capable of dishing out plenty of damage.

 

So  my main point is if your playing AZ in a manor of not trying to kill yourself than you are extremely limiting his ability.

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Agreed. You gotta be willing to wreck him if you want to contribute! 

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I guess that angle just comes down to personal preference.

I, and most of my group, would rather deal 4 damage and take 0 hp, than deal 6 damage and take 3 hp.  Yeah, the 6 hp is more 'optimal', but if you're bringing yourself closer and closer to death with each attack, how many times can you really pull that off?

And yeah, it's fine to take some damage when you're sitting at 20 HP, but when you're sitting on 3 hp, and your next attack takes you out?  There's nothing about that situation that screams 'fun' or even 'optimal' to me.  I feel that Nightmist doesn't run into this problem as much as AZ, given that she's given basic healing abilities by both her Equipment (Necklace) and her Ongoing (Master of Magic), rather than just one.  Her numerous Call Forth cards go a long way, too.  Yeah, if both get nuked she's screwed, but that's still the case with all heroes.

As usual, your milage may vary.  My group just finds it frustrating to build up and build up, going turns without being productive, only to have it all wiped away and have to work from scratch.  As you might imagine, Wraith and Ra get a lot of play at our table, as does Haka.  

That said, it's all kudos to the >G gang for building a game in which we can actually have this sort of argument/discussion.  It says a lot to their internal testing and revision, to catch the right feel for these heroes while simultaneously making them balanced enough that a character like AZ can simultaneously be viewed as the best and the worst hero.  

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Koey wrote:
Does this mean Ra's +1 should also go to him? Or Visionary's +1/-1 card?

Yes.  Any hero boosts get credited to the hero doing the boosting.  Try not to think of corner cases.  Too late!

(Okay, Rook City Wraith flips Obsidian Field into play for everybody to use.  Is she responsible for that extra damage?  Okay, but only for that one turn, right?  What if she was using that power for several turns to try to find them?  Complicated.)  

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PlatinumWarlock wrote:

That said, it's all kudos to the >G gang for building a game in which we can actually have this sort of argument/discussion.  It says a lot to their internal testing and revision, to catch the right feel for these heroes while simultaneously making them balanced enough that a character like AZ can simultaneously be viewed as the best and the worst hero.  

Well said. And I add that, for me, they also did a wonderful job at giving each hero many different ways to be played, even if some tactics are far less obvious than others. I am often surprised to see, when I read how another player plays a hero, how differently we play or evaluate cards and powers !

Another thing about AZ and "self destruction capable heroes" : they still contribute to the fight when incapacitated, and there are some situations where you may want them to be incapacitated... I suspect I am not the only one who sacrificed Tempest so he could make everyone immune to Toxic damage in Pike laboratories, for instance (Tempest is not a "sacrifice" hero, I know, but this example is obvious I had to use it). It can be a winning move. And in a recent game, AZ "died" fast because he did not have his Null-point calibration unit, and finished the game fueling the powers of the other team members quite efficiently - or at least as efficiently as a one song Argent Adept.

I think our reactions to heroes playing "styles" are often a matter of taste and of "do I find fun to play this way" than strengths/weaknesses. Even if some heroes are more "limited in audience" than others.


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The thing about AZ is that he can still do a lot of damage throughout a game even without the Focused Aperatures.  Of course, he can do more damage with them, but with just his basic setup of Null-Point Calibration Unit and Isothermic Transducer (and his deck provides ample opportunites to get these items and hold onto them) he can really contribute through the whole game. He just has such great role versatility that I have maybe only played one game out of the many times I have played with him where he hasn't been that productive, but I could say that about most heroes.  

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Thinking on the topic further, something occurred to me in regards to my somewhat contradictory feelings on Nightmist and Absolute Zero.

Nightmist's healing is almost entirely passive.  Master of Magic rewards her with hp every time she casts a spell--something that she was going to do anyway.  Starshield Necklace lets her discard as an end of turn action for healing.  In no case is her basic routine of play-power-draw disrupted, while she still benefits from the healing.  Getting healed for doing the things you normally do is paramount efficiency, even if those basic actions cause you temporary harm.

How many enemies in the base game deal cold damage?  I can think of a couple--Voss's frost hounds, Citizen Winter--but not many at all.  If AZ wants to heal, it will nearly always cost him an action, either a power or a card play.  While fire-using enemies are more frequent, allowing AZ to spread around more damage, that still doesn't solve the overall hp problem for him.  Using his own actions for self-healing can work, but that hinges greatly on being able redirect damage off-turn, to say nothing of support from teammates.  

That active vs. passive difference for me is what makes the characters so different, and why I end up liking Nightmist while not ready caring for AZ.  I'd be interested in seeing how the Elemental Wrath AZ plays, in comparison to the base character.

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Ab'Zero can get better healing if the Visionary is around. Okay so this requires him to have a whole extra hero in the game, but Twist the Ether on something that'll be dealing Ab'Zero lots of damage is very cool. Or Twist on Ab'Zero himself when you're against Plague Rat and Ab'Zero's been Infected - been there, done that, and the only reason Ab'Zero didn't finish the game on max hp was because he damaged himself in the final turn (with his base power) in order to then hit Plague Rat with the resultant cold damage :D.

Actually, Twist the Ether on Ab'Zero in any game is cool, 'cause it'd be like having an extra Focused Apertures and Cryo Chamber out as a two-in-one card :D.


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When I'm playing with friends who want to try AZ for the first time, I'll often pick Visionary just to show them how ridiculous he can be. They are an exremely powerful combo. Also, AZ really shines with bonus damage because it increases his output by 2 and boosts the damage he does to the enemies over himself by 1. It also makes his healing actions more efficient.

I'll find with AZ I often do damage twice in a row and then switch to one heal and repeat the cycle when I need to be killing things fast, and do two heals and one damage in a cycle if we're in marathon mode. Yeah, you have to activate it, which feels slow, but if you have a few boosts in place your 3-7 damage per turn with breaks to heal up is still 2-4 damage per turn in the long run, which is normal for damage dealy characters, and then he has the added flexibility of healing for several turns or burning himself down to dish out crazy amounts of damage in short bursts if that's what you need.


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With the self-harming characters (like Ab'Zero and Nightmist), I don't tend to have much of a problem burning through the hp until I get down to around 10-15 or so. At that point I consider myself "starting to get a bit low" and tend to put more of a focus on healing. Yeah, 10hp might seem like a lot, but if you're battling a high-damage villain (or a low-damage one who brings out a very nasty, harmful card), that can be reduced pretty quickly - a few hits and suddenly you realise you've lost about 8hp in one turn, for example.


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Koey wrote:

 

flamethrower49 wrote:
Galvanize damage should, of course, be credited to Legacy.  Which is one thing that stands to make this somewhat complicated.  But I'll give it a try, when I remember, and have a bunch of extra time.  Only beatdowns for me today.  (Man, some of you are really looking forward to Iron Legacy.  Some of you aren't.)

 

Does this mean Ra's +1 should also go to him? Or Visionary's +1/-1 card?

 

I disagre entirely. Some heroes - Fanatic, Expatriette for example - do multiple small attacks. They become more powerful with Legacy around, and that should be reflected on /them/ (be like - game total damage 75 with Galvanize. Game b total damage 43) - because that doing multiple sources of damage is what /makes/ them so much more powerfull with just one or two +1 boosts, and that is a trait of them not of Legacy/ra/ect. 


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I can kinda see where you're coming from, but still - you'd have Legacy only be responsible for the 4ish points of damage all game from that spare Thokk! he threw out, but ignore the fact that he played Inspiring Presence turn one and Galvanized every power phase?  You would say he contributed almost no damage?  If anything, it seems to me like it severely overvalues the damage that characters like Fanatic deal for this equation.  It's also not fair to the characters that contribute in a different way.

That's probably another reason nobody's posted about doing this yet.

Does Visionary get the damage for smacking Baron Blade around with a Monorail?   Does she also get all the damage to the Monorail?  Do environment targets even count?  Is Argent Adept credited damage for nuking spaceships with Cedistic Dissonant?  Is Fanatic credited damage for the "destroyed" part of Final Dive?  As I alluded to above, things can get really complicated.  I still plan to do something like this, but the specifics will likely depend on the situation.

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