I also saw these villains demoed for VotM, to much excitement. Wish I had gotten the KickStarter but will be happy (glee!!!!) with the retail purchase later.However, I do worry that those providing the demo were mis-informed on the rules (especially for new people to the game). Specifically, several of the volunteers believed that, as a special case, villains and environments immediately played a card then performed all Start of Turn effects. This drastically changes things from the published Turn Order, of course. One informed me the order didn't matter, after all, which I disagreed with, but got through the demo game.One senior person (I forget the name) did correct this when I inquired if the rules had been updated for this and where to find it so I could show to friends at home. But it did worry me that the demo people were teaching new players this mix-up while being insistent on the company tag line of 'Play, then Power, then Draw".
It is possible that if on the first turn, they would have been putting out the villain cards from the Setuo from the character cards, in which case those would be put in play and then the villain turn would start, Start of Turn effect, etc. If they were just playing from the deck you're right in that is not correct, of course.
I'll say from my experience demoing can be a little stressful even when someone know the game really well. I have hundreds of games of SotM and I still missed a few Start/End of Turn effects while demoing at Pax South this year
I also saw these villains demoed for VotM, to much excitement. Wish I had gotten the KickStarter but will be happy (glee!!!!) with the retail purchase later.However, I do worry that those providing the demo were mis-informed on the rules (especially for new people to the game). Specifically, several of the volunteers believed that, as a special case, villains and environments immediately played a card then performed all Start of Turn effects. This drastically changes things from the published Turn Order, of course. One informed me the order didn't matter, after all, which I disagreed with, but got through the demo game.One senior person (I forget the name) did correct this when I inquired if the rules had been updated for this and where to find it so I could show to friends at home. But it did worry me that the demo people were teaching new players this mix-up while being insistent on the company tag line of 'Play, then Power, then Draw".
It is possible that if on the first turn, they would have been putting out the villain cards from the Setuo from the character cards, in which case those would be put in play and then the villain turn would start, Start of Turn effect, etc. If they were just playing from the deck you're right in that is not correct, of course. I'll say from my experience demoing can be a little stressful even when someone know the game really well. I have hundreds of games of SotM and I still missed a few Start/End of Turn effects while demoing at Pax South this year
In this case, I was informed by the demo person 'This is how we've always played it' during actual game play after setup, so no simple tiredness excuse there. I know that can happen and can appreciate it. However, I think having the volunteers playing a setup game with a knowledgable guru to either refresh the memory or catch these home rule gaffs would help the volunteers be more consistent and informed for the audience. I do know, personal experience, that I do take away from demo's a sample of gameplay to use when I teach the game...so bad or misinformed rules that get shown get propogated this way.
Welcome to the forums Animus. What did the other villains do that made you more fearful of them compared to the Operative?
Greazer's deal was that he was a bounty hunter, and his nemesis was whomever had the highest HP. He did some other harrowing things as well.
Citizens Anvil and Hammer had a great synergy with their powers and immunities.
Plague Rat was all kinds of damaging nasty.
Miss Information messed with your cards and statuses like no tomorrow.
The Operative...did damage, and that was about it from what I saw. Don't get me wrong, she was okay, but I just wasn't as scared of her as I was of the others.
The Operative...did damage, and that was about it from what I saw. Don't get me wrong, she was okay, but I just wasn't as scared of her as I was of the others.
Operative likes to try and snipe heroes with the lowest HP. That can get scary depending on the scenario.
There were gurus available, but we were not always asked when there were rules issues. When we were asked, considering time constraints, I am not sure that both sides always understood either the question being asked as the asker saw it or the answer as the answerer saw it. So mistakes can be made in translation! Sorry for any gafs you guys ran into when being taught the games!
"Deja-fu? You've heard of that?"
- Lu Tze, Sweeper, Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett
Operative is steady, she is easy to run and doesn't get complex, she will mess up low heroes, but mostly she is nice and uncomplicated, and straightforward.
It is important to remember her lore at this point, she's lost her organizational power, and is fighting for Zhu Long to pay off her debt. Tactics Operative is fighting for herself, it is a very different thing. VOTM Operative is Operative at her lowest point (of playable versions).
5 players is the worst format for tthe Vengeance style of play. 3 players is awesome, 4 players is solid, 5 just gets a bit too long with 11 turns each round.
Operative is steady, she is easy to run and doesn't get complex, she will mess up low heroes, but mostly she is nice and uncomplicated, and straightforward.It is important to remember her lore at this point, she's lost her organizational power, and is fighting for Zhu Long to pay off her debt. Tactics Operative is fighting for herself, it is a very different thing. VOTM Operative is Operative at her lowest point (of playable versions).5 players is the worst format for tthe Vengeance style of play. 3 players is awesome, 4 players is solid, 5 just gets a bit too long with 11 turns each round.
Hi guys! I got to demo the VotM for most of the time I was volunteering during GenCon.
I got to agree about the number of players. It kinda reminds me of playing a play of Arkham Horror with 8 people (yes, my group tried to do this once) when playing the Vengence-style with 5 people. It just becomes too long, and too many things are happening at once that some things will become forgotten.
I found it interesting though that a lot of the people I did demos for were new to the whole multiverse. It was kinda cool to explain to them the multiverse and all the story behind the cards. Some were really excited by the time we got done with the demo.
As far as how they play, the team setted up for the demos seemed to work "well" with each other. They balanced out each other from all the fighting amongst themselves and I think that helped make the game seem easier. I think once you start to mix and match the characters in this expansion, it will become more fun, and the Operative will become more...challenging.
I do think we need to have Sentinels of the Multiverse demo sets available at cons. There were a lot of instances of people wanting to learn the game but being (rightfully) intimidated by Villains. For example, we had a family with two youngsters (~6 & 8) who wanted to play but Villains was just going to be too much for them.
Having said that, I loved the demo kits that had been created for Villains! It was quick and easy to know what to do and what to use. (Something like that for SotM in general would be shiny!)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
I do think we need to have Sentinels of the Multiverse demo sets available at cons. There were a lot of instances of people wanting to learn the game but being (rightfully) intimidated by Villains. For example, we had a family with two youngsters (~6 & 8) who wanted to play but Villains was just going to be too much for them. Having said that, I loved the demo kits that had been created for Villains! It was quick and easy to know what to do and what to use. (Something like that for SotM in general would be shiny!)
I believe there was a more standard set available for demos. We just didn't always have space or volunteers to run it.
I do think we need to have Sentinels of the Multiverse demo sets available at cons. There were a lot of instances of people wanting to learn the game but being (rightfully) intimidated by Villains. For example, we had a family with two youngsters (~6 & 8) who wanted to play but Villains was just going to be too much for them. Having said that, I loved the demo kits that had been created for Villains! It was quick and easy to know what to do and what to use. (Something like that for SotM in general would be shiny!)
I believe there was a more standard set available for demos. We just didn't always have space or volunteers to run it.
The standard set used was Rabit's set.
"Deja-fu? You've heard of that?"
- Lu Tze, Sweeper, Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett
We just didn't always have space or volunteers to run it.
Agreed there were times we didn't have space or volunteers. I wasn't there all the time, so I can't speak for every instance someone expressed interest. I know some volunteers did demos when they weren't "on duty" just to make sure they happened, when folks came specifically asking about it. Most of the times when I was there we could find a table - it was those midday pain points when we had so many events all scheduled at the same time that we'd need to use one of the neighbor's tables (with their permission, of course).
MigrantP wrote:
FWIW Paul was sending people who wanted to play SotM over to the booth, to play the video game =)
I can understand that - great idea! Hopefully it worked out well?
Unfortunately, some folks aren't going to want to play the computer game to learn the card game (that family I mentioned being a prime example). I would have to weigh that against the folks expressing interest. For example, the folks who just want a quick, 15-20-minute demo, which is impossible to rig up with the computer version but easy enough if the volunteer knows the decks and how to set it up. Or the group of five folks who walked in asking if we could teach them a tabletop game they would like. They had no idea who we were or what we had - they were just friends who liked playing tabletop games. We asked them some questions, and SotM was definitely in line with their interests (one guy's face just lit up at "coop super-hero card game), but they weren't interested in a computer game - they specifically wanted tabletop - and Villains probably wouldn't be a good intro for some of them (they were definitely casual gamers).
And I'd be concerned some of those folks would never make it to the booth. I've done that myself, when someone directs me somewhere else. Too many things going on, distractions, etc.
Not saying we shouldn't do that, just that it depends on the situation. (Thursday, I offered to show someone the game on my Kindle, but they actually responded poorly enough I dismissed it. I probably should have weighed it as an option for other folks, though.)
And for clarity: When I ran Villains demos for folks who hadn't played Sentinels before, they were really overwhelmed by the amount of stuff going on. Folks who knew Sentinels were usually okay, as they knew the basics and could parse the complexities, but the new folks just couldn't track all the things happening, all the cards that were out, etc.
I'm interested in the idea of the volunteer running all the villains, as that would probably have helped. Have to try that some time. Did anyone see that taking away from the players' interactions with the game? (Knowing me, I'd miss triggers right and left, though. Have to think about that...)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
If I were wildly speculating (and I am) I would hazard a guess that demoing a line that is really, really close to finishing is not the best business decision in the world when compared to demoing new products.
Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all
Ummmm......lines go on forever. They don't finish.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"
In other GenCon related news ... A friend, who is only minimally familiar with SotM or GtG, but knows I'm a fan of Sentinels mentioned today that she'd been at the GtG booth at GenCon and had seen and fell in love with Bottom of the 9th.
With GtG's catalogue having increased so much, I think it's quite a challenge to figure out how to promote all of those games. I think the stand-up, custom 2-person demo tables were fantastic. Really stellar. Sadly, there seemed to be too many times when there wasn't anybody available and/or who knew a game to demo it.
The crowed was just packed, packed, packed. On the one hand, that means that there was always lots of people walking by the booth, but it also meant that, at least to me, it felt less like a comfortable place to hang out and try a game and more like ... running with the bulls?!
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
I can understand that - great idea! Hopefully it worked out well? Unfortunately, some folks aren't going to want to play the computer game to learn the card game (that family I mentioned being a prime example). I would have to weigh that against the folks expressing interest. For example, the folks who just want a quick, 15-20-minute demo, which is impossible to rig up with the computer version but easy enough if the volunteer knows the decks and how to set it up. Or the group of five folks who walked in asking if we could teach them a tabletop game they would like. They had no idea who we were or what we had - they were just friends who liked playing tabletop games. We asked them some questions, and SotM was definitely in line with their interests (one guy's face just lit up at "coop super-hero card game), but they weren't interested in a computer game - they specifically wanted tabletop - and Villains probably wouldn't be a good intro for some of them (they were definitely casual gamers). And I'd be concerned some of those folks would never make it to the booth. I've done that myself, when someone directs me somewhere else. Too many things going on, distractions, etc.Not saying we shouldn't do that, just that it depends on the situation. (Thursday, I offered to show someone the game on my Kindle, but they actually responded poorly enough I dismissed it. I probably should have weighed it as an option for other folks, though.)
The booth was always busy with people playing on the single-player demos and the multiplayer demo, though I didn't hear anyone specifically say they came from the demo room. Getting lost/distracted on the way is definitely a problem.
We aim to make it clear to people that it's the exact same game as the tabletop, and most are pretty happy to try it with that in mind, even if they are mainly interested in tabletop. There are definitely those who have no interest at all in digital, or appear to be filled with seething hatred for electronic devices, but you take what you can get =)
A 15-20 minute demo is easy to set up on the digital version, because it's already set up that way at conventions. The default demo goes through the tutorial with fixed hands & stacked decks for Baron Blade + Freedom Four + Insula Primalis. If it's not busy, we have extra volunteers, or someone needs help, we can turn off the tutorial and walk them through the game personally. We can also set up a custom game with whatever we like.
I definitely understand why GTG focused the physical demos on new products. Gotta keep moving! It might be an interesting experiment though next time to have a volunteer or two with a tablet to do pass & play SotM demos with interested visitors without taking up a table.
Rabit, Pydro, and I got together to take a group photo. Will try to remember to share it at some point. We cogitated on what one would call a group of Moderators. A Module of Moderators? A Mayhem of Moderators? A Mole of Moderators?
It is possible that if on the first turn, they would have been putting out the villain cards from the Setuo from the character cards, in which case those would be put in play and then the villain turn would start, Start of Turn effect, etc. If they were just playing from the deck you're right in that is not correct, of course.
I'll say from my experience demoing can be a little stressful even when someone know the game really well. I have hundreds of games of SotM and I still missed a few Start/End of Turn effects while demoing at Pax South this year
In this case, I was informed by the demo person 'This is how we've always played it' during actual game play after setup, so no simple tiredness excuse there. I know that can happen and can appreciate it. However, I think having the volunteers playing a setup game with a knowledgable guru to either refresh the memory or catch these home rule gaffs would help the volunteers be more consistent and informed for the audience. I do know, personal experience, that I do take away from demo's a sample of gameplay to use when I teach the game...so bad or misinformed rules that get shown get propogated this way.
I couldn't agree with this more
Greazer's deal was that he was a bounty hunter, and his nemesis was whomever had the highest HP. He did some other harrowing things as well.
Citizens Anvil and Hammer had a great synergy with their powers and immunities.
Plague Rat was all kinds of damaging nasty.
Miss Information messed with your cards and statuses like no tomorrow.
The Operative...did damage, and that was about it from what I saw. Don't get me wrong, she was okay, but I just wasn't as scared of her as I was of the others.
Operative likes to try and snipe heroes with the lowest HP. That can get scary depending on the scenario.
Interesting, I would have expected her to have a lot of reactionary damage
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
There were gurus available, but we were not always asked when there were rules issues. When we were asked, considering time constraints, I am not sure that both sides always understood either the question being asked as the asker saw it or the answer as the answerer saw it. So mistakes can be made in translation! Sorry for any gafs you guys ran into when being taught the games!
"Deja-fu? You've heard of that?"
- Lu Tze, Sweeper, Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett
Operative is steady, she is easy to run and doesn't get complex, she will mess up low heroes, but mostly she is nice and uncomplicated, and straightforward.
It is important to remember her lore at this point, she's lost her organizational power, and is fighting for Zhu Long to pay off her debt. Tactics Operative is fighting for herself, it is a very different thing. VOTM Operative is Operative at her lowest point (of playable versions).
5 players is the worst format for tthe Vengeance style of play. 3 players is awesome, 4 players is solid, 5 just gets a bit too long with 11 turns each round.
Hi guys! I got to demo the VotM for most of the time I was volunteering during GenCon.
I got to agree about the number of players. It kinda reminds me of playing a play of Arkham Horror with 8 people (yes, my group tried to do this once) when playing the Vengence-style with 5 people. It just becomes too long, and too many things are happening at once that some things will become forgotten.
I found it interesting though that a lot of the people I did demos for were new to the whole multiverse. It was kinda cool to explain to them the multiverse and all the story behind the cards. Some were really excited by the time we got done with the demo.
As far as how they play, the team setted up for the demos seemed to work "well" with each other. They balanced out each other from all the fighting amongst themselves and I think that helped make the game seem easier. I think once you start to mix and match the characters in this expansion, it will become more fun, and the Operative will become more...challenging.
Full-time Scientist, Part-time Artist.
I do think we need to have Sentinels of the Multiverse demo sets available at cons. There were a lot of instances of people wanting to learn the game but being (rightfully) intimidated by Villains. For example, we had a family with two youngsters (~6 & 8) who wanted to play but Villains was just going to be too much for them.
Having said that, I loved the demo kits that had been created for Villains! It was quick and easy to know what to do and what to use. (Something like that for SotM in general would be shiny!)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)
FWIW Paul was sending people who wanted to play SotM over to the booth, to play the video game =)
Lead Bit Flipper, Handelabra Games
Developer of Sentinels, Bottom of the 9th, and Spirit Island
The standard set used was Rabit's set.
"Deja-fu? You've heard of that?"
- Lu Tze, Sweeper, Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett
Agreed there were times we didn't have space or volunteers. I wasn't there all the time, so I can't speak for every instance someone expressed interest. I know some volunteers did demos when they weren't "on duty" just to make sure they happened, when folks came specifically asking about it. Most of the times when I was there we could find a table - it was those midday pain points when we had so many events all scheduled at the same time that we'd need to use one of the neighbor's tables (with their permission, of course).
I can understand that - great idea! Hopefully it worked out well?
Unfortunately, some folks aren't going to want to play the computer game to learn the card game (that family I mentioned being a prime example). I would have to weigh that against the folks expressing interest. For example, the folks who just want a quick, 15-20-minute demo, which is impossible to rig up with the computer version but easy enough if the volunteer knows the decks and how to set it up. Or the group of five folks who walked in asking if we could teach them a tabletop game they would like. They had no idea who we were or what we had - they were just friends who liked playing tabletop games. We asked them some questions, and SotM was definitely in line with their interests (one guy's face just lit up at "coop super-hero card game), but they weren't interested in a computer game - they specifically wanted tabletop - and Villains probably wouldn't be a good intro for some of them (they were definitely casual gamers).
And I'd be concerned some of those folks would never make it to the booth.
I've done that myself, when someone directs me somewhere else. Too many things going on, distractions, etc.
Not saying we shouldn't do that, just that it depends on the situation. (Thursday, I offered to show someone the game on my Kindle, but they actually responded poorly enough I dismissed it. I probably should have weighed it as an option for other folks, though.)
And for clarity: When I ran Villains demos for folks who hadn't played Sentinels before, they were really overwhelmed by the amount of stuff going on. Folks who knew Sentinels were usually okay, as they knew the basics and could parse the complexities, but the new folks just couldn't track all the things happening, all the cards that were out, etc.
I'm interested in the idea of the volunteer running all the villains, as that would probably have helped. Have to try that some time. Did anyone see that taking away from the players' interactions with the game? (Knowing me, I'd miss triggers right and left, though. Have to think about that...)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)
If I were wildly speculating (and I am) I would hazard a guess that demoing a line that is really, really close to finishing is not the best business decision in the world when compared to demoing new products.
Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all
Ummmm......lines go on forever. They don't finish.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"
In other GenCon related news ... A friend, who is only minimally familiar with SotM or GtG, but knows I'm a fan of Sentinels mentioned today that she'd been at the GtG booth at GenCon and had seen and fell in love with Bottom of the 9th.
With GtG's catalogue having increased so much, I think it's quite a challenge to figure out how to promote all of those games. I think the stand-up, custom 2-person demo tables were fantastic. Really stellar. Sadly, there seemed to be too many times when there wasn't anybody available and/or who knew a game to demo it.
The crowed was just packed, packed, packed. On the one hand, that means that there was always lots of people walking by the booth, but it also meant that, at least to me, it felt less like a comfortable place to hang out and try a game and more like ... running with the bulls?!
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
The booth was always busy with people playing on the single-player demos and the multiplayer demo, though I didn't hear anyone specifically say they came from the demo room. Getting lost/distracted on the way is definitely a problem.
We aim to make it clear to people that it's the exact same game as the tabletop, and most are pretty happy to try it with that in mind, even if they are mainly interested in tabletop. There are definitely those who have no interest at all in digital, or appear to be filled with seething hatred for electronic devices, but you take what you can get =)
A 15-20 minute demo is easy to set up on the digital version, because it's already set up that way at conventions. The default demo goes through the tutorial with fixed hands & stacked decks for Baron Blade + Freedom Four + Insula Primalis. If it's not busy, we have extra volunteers, or someone needs help, we can turn off the tutorial and walk them through the game personally. We can also set up a custom game with whatever we like.
I definitely understand why GTG focused the physical demos on new products. Gotta keep moving! It might be an interesting experiment though next time to have a volunteer or two with a tablet to do pass & play SotM demos with interested visitors without taking up a table.
Lead Bit Flipper, Handelabra Games
Developer of Sentinels, Bottom of the 9th, and Spirit Island
http://www.spatzel.net/gallery3/index.php/PicturesbyAndy/20150805-Misc/DSCF9726
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
Man we missed out on a big opportunity as that means during Gencon there were no rules on the forum for a while.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
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