Hi, got myself confused over this tonight.
Was playing Ambuscade and he had both "sonic mines" and "charged attacks" in play.
Both have triggers that happen when sonic mine is destroyed, sonic mine deals each hero damage, charged attacks causes ambuscade to deal damage when a device (such as sonic mines is destroyed).
which happens first, does the sonic mine deal damage or does ambuscade or is it player choice ?
I can see several arguments here
1.) player choice. it's a simulataneous effect so the player decide which effect happens first. I think this may be the correct option (and seems to be what most recent rulings would suggest?).
2.) charged attacks has to be resolved completely before sonic mines damage can be dealt, on the basis of "resolve each effect completely before moving on". I don't think theres much argument for this, it is not sonic mine dealing damage which is causing "charged attacks" to trigger, it is the destruction of the sonic mine (which is still in play while resolving it's own destuction).
3.) sonic mines has to do it's damge before charged attacks is triggered. It could maybe be argued that when sonic mine is destroyed, it has to resolve it's own destruction and be put to the trash before the effect of "charged attacks" can trigger. I don't think there's much of an argument here.
Pretty sure it's 1.
I agree that it's 1, for destruction-triggered effects.
Sadly (and counterintuitively for me), the same is not true for DAMAGE-triggered effects. For those, the effects on the card taking the damage have to happen first.
The answer is 1.
From the fireside chats:
Do we have a citation for the damage-triggered effects ruling, AlexxKay? I realize that that's what the damage timing spreadsheet says (well, not exactly. What it says is that triggers that happen when damage is dealt to the target have priority over triggers that happen when damage is dealt. So Baron Blade's Backlash Field has priority over Autonomous Blade), but the spreadsheet is unofficial and I don't remember when that ruling was established.
I'd test it with Dual Crowbars vs Backlash Field, but I'm having difficulty getting the app to start.
EDIT: I've tested the Dual Crowbars + Backlash Field interaction (and the Dual Crowbars + Combat Stance interaction, because I could), and it worked exactly as you say. I'd still like to see a citation if you could find one, though, because it bothers me that I don't remember this being discussed.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"
Ah, thank you. I was looking at the chats, so I'm not sure why I missed it, but anyways.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
Thanks, Pydro.
(I considered adding citations to the spreadsheet, but I couldn't think of any way to do so that would leave the spreadsheet readable.)
Footnotes.
Am I correct in assuming that if in this instance, if the sonic mine was destroyed, and charged attack was chosen to trigger first (instead of the damage from sonic mine) then Ambuscade would deal damage to the sonic mine (as it would still be in play while resolving it's own destruction) as part of his deal every target damage effect?
BUT if sonic mine was destroyed and the choice was made for it to deal its damage (and thus completely resolve it's own destruction and go to the trash pile) before charged attack triggered then sonic mine would not longer be considering in play and targetable by Ambuscades charged attack?
Obviously it's not usually going to make a difference but I was wondering how it would work in relation to a situation say where Chrono Ranger had "The ultimate target" in play next to ambuscade (in the scenario where Abmuscade had "sonic mine" and "charged attacks" in play), in my mind the following is a legal move:
Something causes the Sonic Mine to be destroyed, both the damage effects of the sonic mine and the charged attack try to trigger at the same time, Player choses charged attack to trigger first, Player Chooses Ambuscade to target the still in play sonic mine as the first target of Ambuscades attack, Ambuscade still deals the damage to sonic mine (even though it is at 0 HP and in the process of being destroyed already, Since Ambuscade has dealt damage then Chrono Ranger is able to use a power.
Then Ambuscade would continue with his charged attack on all other targets (providing Chrono Ranger didn't take him out!), then after all those attacks were resolved the sonic mine's sonic damage to hero targets would be resolved.
On a similar train of thought, if this logic is followed, then when "explosives wagon" is destroyed, then as part of it's deal damage to every target trigger it would also deal damage to itself ? (I can see this have even less bearing on play then the above situation, but still a curio)
These are the considerations players need to make when they choose the order of things. Definitely Ambuscade would trigger ChronoRanger's extra power use. And if that allowed ChronoRanger to kill Ambuscade, that would end the game before the rest of the charged attacks triggered.
"Deja-fu? You've heard of that?"
- Lu Tze, Sweeper, Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett
When resolving the "on destruction" effect, the card stays in play and is targetable, so Explosive Wagon will hit itself.
I have to check again, but I don't think the order matters. As long as there is an "on destruction" effect, the card stays in play. It doesn't matter if it is on the card itself or another card. Therefore, Sonic Mine would stay in play to resolve Charge Attacks. (I need to confirm this, but this is how the video game used to handle it).
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"
Thanks for your reply,
So, it could be said "remains in play while resolving its own destruction, and for the duration of any other "on destruction" effects of other cards triggered by it's destruction" isa fair statement.
Yes.