This has wandered pretty far from the main point of this thread and may be worthy of its own as a discussion.
FWIW, as a GM, I would not let someone use the same call-back - or even mostly the same call-back - in the same scene. I don't care if that's called a House Rule or not; it's not happening at my table.
That being said, however, it *really* shouldn't be difficult for a player to come up with another call-back to use another collection.
(And all *that* being said, the collection system breaks at about 6 collections anyway, so either they include some previously-unseen long-term advancement notes or I'll be among those house-ruling the permanent exchange of collections for permanent power-ups.)
That has to do with how many collections people in mixed tables have, not whether you can or can't "re-use" collections for the same narrative function. While I definitely think Cult of Gloom is capturing the spirit of the rules, MindWanderer is correct about the letter of the law.
It still is directly saying to limit use of collections and so it doesn’t make it a houserule to limit use of them.
It's specifically saying, "limit this power by putting a cap on the number of collections a hero can use to create bonuses." Break the 4th allows the player to uncheck a used collection, allowing them to use it again. Its entire purpose is to subvert this limit. Its entire purpose is to use the same collection--the same justification--to avoid a minor twist, change a die value, or add a story element.
That said, I think it's a terrible ability, not least for the reasons you and Cult of Gloom state. It's broken and it abuses Collections thematically. But as written I don't see any reason to disallow it being used this way outside of a house rule.
From what I read in a few points, I think that you could argue using a collection per scene should be limited to different points. Using the uncle Ben thing in scenes back to back would be fine, in one fight I would say it needs to be a different story IMO.
This'll be my last post on the matter. I guess it still just bugs me to call disallowing an action becuase it doesn't make dramatic or logical sense a house rule when the rules state the action can only be taken when it makes sense for the scene and story, To me it feels less like a house rule and more like exactly what the rule says and actually playing the role playing game.
Remember, don't turn that frown upside down! Turn it into Eldritch Power to summon our Dark Master to Spite a world that has wronged you.
to try and swerve back in the lane-
MindWanderer you said you were not a fan of Action + other Action with Min die but did you rate Attack + Defend with min die a bit higher than the others of that type?
The mountain watches the freedom of the sea and cries. The sea looks at the stability of the mountain and sighs.
I shouldn't have. Did that come across somewhere? Attack is a somewhat more valuable action than boost or hinder, but Defend is somewhat less valuable. That's better than a basic Attack but it's worse than most other Action abilities.
To follow up that question, what about the instance where it is: Attack with Mid, Defend with Min against all Attacks against you until your next turn?
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
I didn't say anything about that one. It's situational, so I didn't feel comfortable making a blanket valuation of it. If a hero can successfully draw a lot of aggro for several enemy attacks, it's fantastic. Or the hero could end up taking his or her next turn immediately, and it's useless. It also depends on the GM and the decisions of the enemies--will they attack the defended hero, or attack someone else? Or take other actions? Would the heroes benefit if the defense was merely a deterrent? Too many factors to make a simple statement about.
By that same argument, wouldn't that render it quite difficult to lend an accurate grade to Sabotage from the Shadow Archetype? Certainly, at it's base it functions as a Attack Mid+Hinder Min. However, it has two other modes that can complicate the variables in assessing it. Yet, it recieves no mention in favor of pointing out that Untouchable and Smoke Bombs are mutually exclusive.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
I think I've nailed down what parts of the guide principally strike me as flawed. I often design characters from their role in a team first, and then individually second. That leads me to place a greater value on effects that are more situational, as well as for effects that can maximize a build up over time. So I'm likely not the best to give constructive criticism, as much as an alternate view.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
I shouldn't have. Did that come across somewhere? Attack is a somewhat more valuable action than boost or hinder, but Defend is somewhat less valuable. That's better than a basic Attack but it's worse than most other Action abilities.
in the writ up for Flier archetype.
My best character is a mystic/flier so those sections stuck with me
The mountain watches the freedom of the sea and cries. The sea looks at the stability of the mountain and sighs.
That's not "Defend with your Min die," it's "Defend against all Attacks against you using your Min die until your next turn." That's a much more powerful effect than a single-use Defend (albeit one that can target someone other than yourself).
I didn't address team dynamics, true. Optimizing team composition would be a whole other document that takes a lot of other considerations. Also it can get truly bonkers if you lean hard into synergies (e.g. mass boosts and mass summons, or abilities that damage allies and allies that absorb the damage).
ahh... Gotcha. since that's the one on my sheet I forgot others are not so good
Here's an idea MindWanderer how about I make a new thread reposting Salamander and you (and others) rank and grade my build?
Then others can post to have their builds checked out.
I will wait for a positive reply before I post of course
The mountain watches the freedom of the sea and cries. The sea looks at the stability of the mountain and sighs.
I'd certainly respond to a "rate my build" thread, but maybe wait a bit longer. The final PDF's are just over the horizon and I'm hoping there will be changes or clarifications that will affect some of this stuff.
Even if the final PDFs don't contain changes, it's better to wait and make sure that they don't rather than giving well-intentioned but possibly misinformed critique.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
Hey Sea-Envy, do you still want to make that thread?
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
MindWanderer, now with a few months' actual play experience under my belt, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Villain Approaches and Archetypes. I've learned somewhat the hard way that all combos are not equal and you can design a villain to be what you want them to be and find out in play that they are just killing machines instead of the mid-level "average" villain you intended. I find this especially to be the case when converting villains from other systems.
You know, just in case you needed a new project. ;)
Honestly, the "balance" in the villain rules is so disappointing that I'm not inclined to try. It's trivially easy to create a villain that's stupidly broken or one that goes down in a stiff breeze. I suppose it might be worthwhile to point out villain abilities that singlehandedly make a fight unexpectedly difficult, but that's a very different sort of task than "optimization." Plus it's always easy to nerf a villain on the fly and simply take an ability away or reduce its effectiveness, if the players are getting wrecked. GM's never have to follow the rules if they don't want to.
I agree with MindWanderer here.
As an example, giving a villain with the Titan archetype the inherent for damage reduction based on it's challenge and the reaction to uncheck a box on it's challenge when attacked with doubles can result in something that the heroes are simply incapable of meaningfully damaging for large portions of the fight.
It's also very hard to gauge the effectiveness of a villain without playing them. As a more humorous example, I made a villain with no action abilities. The players are terrified of them, because despite the heroes having dealt reasonable damage to it it hasn't taken the attack action against them.
The villain rules are not intended for balance. They're intended to make something to fight the heroes on a footing of your choice, with other scene elements interefering in the fight.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
As a guy who is used to running more "traditional" supers RPG, that lack of balance or even real transparency before you put the villain on the table is frustrating.
My heroes fighting a team of villains is a common occurrence. Not having any idea whether it's going to be a blow-through or a 3-hour grind is becoming a pain. It can't be a scene element "on a footing of my choice" if I can't know how good a villain is beforehand.
I wasn't worried about "optimization." I just wondered if the more mechanically-minded could even point out "these are the easy approaches/archetypes" and "these are the nightmare approaches/archetypes."
Not really. In general though, if an Approach/Archetype is a suggested pairing, it's likely to be pretty potent.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
For a more direct answer to your question, I refer you to Tech Upgrades and Powered Suit power sources. There are two examples there of how MindWanderer rated abilities of the type you are talking about.
If you want my personal answer, which is likely on a 90 degree tangent to MindWanderers reasoning:
You might have read my comments on the Shadow archetype, where in a previous version it's various utility abilities had it rated lower than others because it wasn't good in every situation. What you're describing falls into a similar category, where there are definitely combos. Flexible Stance (exclusively from Close Quarters Combatant) really shines when used in combination with Endurance Fighting, which then chains into Inspiring Totem for a total of 3 Attacks and 3 Hinders. Which is neat. Combo based builds however tend to not be as viable, because you often just do the same thing over and over mechanically.
There's nothing explictly wrong with that, but it has a major weakness. Twists can lay down pretty substantial hinders, lock abilities, or even lock powers and qualities. Losing a Power or Quality in question can lock out one or several abilities on your sheet if you're based on using that one power to it's most, whereas losing a single Inherent ability can be devastating to making a combo work. Hinders can force you to delay entire turns before pulling off a combo.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
So when building are Twists something to avoid at all costs or should I be leaning into the system? For example, if there are Yellow abilities producing persistant bonuses that just better than their Green counterparts is it inadvisaable to plan to dip down into that while still in the green as part of the build design?
Same with the Red abilties you mention, is it worth the minor twist to get those six attacks?
I agree with Cat's basic premise: Combos can be powerful, but you only get so many abilities, so setting them up costs you versatility very easily. For instance, if you take two Red Inherent or Reaction abilities, on your turn you either use that one Red ability over and over again, or fall back on Yellow ones.
I still disagree with their love of Flexible Stance, though. Sure, with Inspiring Totem and Endurance Fightning, you can use it to get 2 Min attacks, a Mid attack, and 3 Min hinders. That's a whole lot of Min dice, though. When you're in Red, you can be using Yellow or Red abilities, such as Blinding Strike, Supersonic Streak, Heedless Blast, Live Dangerously, Field of Energy, Danger!, Towering Form, or Unload, or at least one of the many abilities that hits more than 2 targets with your Min die.
As for Twists, it's hard to say. Some GM's are more harsh than others about how they use them. If you go strictly off the suggestions in the book, they're pretty bad and should generally be avoided. Unless you're a Wild Card with at least one Collection, of course. And that Inspiring Totem+Endurance Fighting combo would cost two Twists if used in Yellow.
Since the Flexible Stance rolls are all seperate wouldn't you be able to apply Persistent boosts to each distinct roll, potentially tripling the effectiveness of the bonus?
At what point do the Boosts become more valuable than the die size/position? How do you factor that into builds?
MindWanderer actually correct me on that recently; It's apparently a somewhat common error.
Bonuses and penalties alike only apply to the 'effect' that they are applied to, and you can't apply them to multiple rolls within the same action. You could apply your persistent bonus to one of the basic actions, but not to both using the Min die. I think you could apply it to the Hinder from Endurance Fighting, since that's the same 'effect', but don't quote me on that.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
Additional thoughts on twists to answer LBS's question...
LBS wrote:
So when building are Twists something to avoid at all costs or should I be leaning into the system? For example, if there are Yellow abilities producing persistant bonuses that just better than their Green counterparts is it inadvisaable to plan to dip down into that while still in the green as part of the build design?
Different players play different ways. I'll often go for a minor if it comes up for a roll, but I usually won't dip into Yellow when the condition is still Green (and if it's dire, it probably isn't Green ;-). But other folks love to roll with the twists and come up with all kinds of things. The minors aren't generally too bad, in my experience and when I'm running a game, and can be well worth it if the end result is positive enough.
It would be a good conversation to have with your GM. :-)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
MindWanderer actually correct me on that recently; It's apparently a somewhat common error.
Bonuses and penalties alike only apply to the 'effect' that they are applied to, and you can't apply them to multiple rolls within the same action. You could apply your persistent bonus to one of the basic actions, but not to both using the Min die. I think you could apply it to the Hinder from Endurance Fighting, since that's the same 'effect', but don't quote me on that.
Where is this in the rules (they tend to hide these things)? Under boosts it says that boosts can only be applied once per roll, not once per action and are applied to the effect die. If the Boost is persistent why wouldn't it apply to every discrete roll as stated in the rules?
Page 22 says that mods only affect one effect die, and it was further clarified on the Letters Page to "each mod affects one specific effect".
In the case of flexible stance+endurance fighting, it would be that each instance of the min die is being used for a different effect (even if it's the same ability using it).
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
Since the Flexible Stance rolls are all seperate wouldn't you be able to apply Persistent boosts to each distinct roll, potentially tripling the effectiveness of the bonus?
They aren't separate rolls. You make one roll and both effects get the Min die result.
LBS wrote:
Where is this in the rules (they tend to hide these things)? Under boosts it says that boosts can only be applied once per roll, not once per action and are applied to the effect die. If the Boost is persistent why wouldn't it apply to every discrete roll as stated in the rules?
Yes, a persistent bonus applies to each discrete roll, but no ability lets you make more than one standard roll during your turn (exceptions being things like Wild Card that use dice for other purposes).
I really, really wish that it was stated this way in the rulebook. I argued for it in playtesting and in review repeatedly. As written, you're absolutely correct--a mod would affect one die and everything that one die applied to. But Christopher issued the ruling Cat quoted on the podcast.
That said, he does make mistakes sometimes--he made a substantial one in the last Live game and had to retract it--and he hasn't restated this ruling since. So it could conceivably change. I don't think it will, as it would be OP that way and would interact weirdly with Twists, but it would be RAW.
As written, you're absolutely correct--a mod would affect one die and everything that one die applied to. But Christopher issued the ruling Cat quoted on the podcast.
That said, he does make mistakes sometimes--he made a substantial one in the last Live game and had to retract it--and he hasn't restated this ruling since. So it could conceivably change. I don't think it will, as it would be OP that way and would interact weirdly with Twists, but it would be RAW.
I thought someone had asked for a clarification on the podcast, but now I can't find it so I'm probably wrong. :-\
Any idea if someone submitted a letter asking about it? I mean, I'm better MindWanderer that you have, but if more folks do they might answer it? (Or maybe they're going to wait until the rules are available publicly...)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
Any idea if someone submitted a letter asking about it? I mean, I'm better MindWanderer that you have, but if more folks do they might answer it? (Or maybe they're going to wait until the rules are available publicly...)
Yeah, I submitted that letter! What I said above is based on their answer to it. But this was a long time ago, certainly over a year, and since then I nagged them repeatedly to make that the rule that was actually reflected in the rulebook, but they didn't. So maybe the official rule changed. Someone could certainly ask again. (Note: I'm over 6 months behind on listening to the podcast now.)
I think I found it in Editor's Note #40 and here are the WalkingTarget notes
WalkingTarget notes wrote:
The rules for Mods say that they affect the single Effect Die that’s being used in the action taken; but what if there are multiple effects that are keyed on the same Effect Die (say, you Overcome with Mid, but also take a Minor Twist that you lose health equal to your Mid)? Does the Mod get applied for every effect or is it only applied to one? It gets split off for every effect. Like, the physical die number isn’t being changed, so if you have one Ability that has you do some Action with your Mid, but then you also use a Reaction that keys off of the Mid, a Bonus would only be applied to one of those two things leaving the unaltered die value in place for the remaining one.
You have to declare that you’re using a Bonus before your roll, but when do you declare which Effect Die you’re applying the Bonus to? Like, if you declare that you’re using a +2 Bonus on a Blinding Strike, do you also have to declare if you’re applying it to the Min or the Mid ahead of time, or can you see the results first? You get to pick where it goes after the roll, as long as you say you’re using it before the roll. It gets some strategic use if one Effect Die is doing an Overcome and you can see whether or not the Bonus would bump you up into a new category of success or not - if it wouldn’t you don’t need to “waste” your bonus on that effect if you have something else you can put it towards on the roll.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
So continuing this madness...if an attack attacks multiple targets, is it the case that the rules say my +2 persistent bonus applies to the damage of everyone I hit, but the Christopher correction says it affects only one of them?
Or is this different than 2 distinct effects cueing off the same die?
My understanding is you have an action which attacks all targets with a min die you apply your bonus to each target hit. However, if you additionally had Endurance Fighting that bonus on your min die would not apply to the hinder on each of targets attacked.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
So continuing this madness...if an attack attacks multiple targets, is it the case that the rules say my +2 persistent bonus applies to the damage of everyone I hit, but the Christopher correction says it affects only one of them?
Or is this different than 2 distinct effects cueing off the same die?
It is different. The Attack against multiple targets is one single effect, being one Attack that just happens to hit multiple targets at the same time.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
When I got the book, and started reading through the Abilities in the various Sources and Archetypes, I was more and more convinced that balance took a back seat to aesthetics and trying to enable specific small-a character archetypes.... it seems like two characters built using the same build option can be quite far apart in efficacy, and some concepts can be fully realized as starting characters while others really can't -- and it's a difference that doesn't seem to come to power level.
Looking at the sample characters, they seem to have more Powers, Qualities, and/or Abilities than what I'm coming up with, so either I'm screwing something up in the process or there are builds that come up far more effective than the ones I'm working with.
The Abilities also seem to vary quite a bit in their actual effectiveness -- some Sources or Archetypes are loaded with defensive options, others have a single defensive option that's also strictly limited. Some have multiple Green options, some have none. Etc.
It would be interesting to see the steps you're going through to see what might be going on. For example, here are the steps I documented for a character I created. (I keep this log for all my characters so I can look at how I might adjust things with a rebuild, understand any mistakes I made, etc.) Note: Not posting looking for feedback, just to provide an example of how you could share what you're doing. :-)
Background: Criminal (d8, d8, d8)
Criminal Underworld Info – d8
Physical Quality of Stealth – d10
Expertise Principle of Stealth
Power Source: Supernatural (d10, d10, d6)
Mobility Power of Teleportation (renamed Portal Generation) – d8
Awareness – d8
Self-Control Power of Part Detachment (renamed Reaching Through) – d8
Power not on list: Agility – d10
Yellows
Mass Modification (renamed Dynamic Repositioning) using Teleportation (Portal Generation)
Reach Through Veil (renamed Dodging Portal)
Archetype: Transporter (d10, d10)
Mobility: Swap Teleport’s d8 with a d10
Mobility Power of Speed – d6
Psychic Power of Remote Viewing (renamed Peak Behind the Curtain) – d10
Physical Quality of Finesse – d8 (from Teleportation)
Greens
Displacement Assault (renamed Portal Drop) using Teleportation (Portal Generation)
Mobile Dodge (renamed Reactive Hop)
Yellow: Mobile Assist (renamed Thinking with Portals) using Teleportation (Portal Generation)
Expertise Principle of Speed
Personality: Impulsive
Quality: Reactive – d8
Upgrade: Teleportation – d12
Status dice are d6, d6, d8
Out Ability: The hero who goes directly after you may take 1 damage to reroll their dice pool
Reds:
Push Your Limits (renamed Driven to Protect)
Heroic Interruption (renamed Intercepting Portal)
Retcon
Red: Give Time (renamed Tactical Redeploy) using Teleportation (Portal Generation)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
Different backgrounds often account for the different numbers of qualities, and then the combination of power source and archetype typically determine how many abilities and powers your character will have.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
This has wandered pretty far from the main point of this thread and may be worthy of its own as a discussion.
FWIW, as a GM, I would not let someone use the same call-back - or even mostly the same call-back - in the same scene. I don't care if that's called a House Rule or not; it's not happening at my table.
That being said, however, it *really* shouldn't be difficult for a player to come up with another call-back to use another collection.
(And all *that* being said, the collection system breaks at about 6 collections anyway, so either they include some previously-unseen long-term advancement notes or I'll be among those house-ruling the permanent exchange of collections for permanent power-ups.)
Fight! 2nd edition available now.
It's specifically saying, "limit this power by putting a cap on the number of collections a hero can use to create bonuses." Break the 4th allows the player to uncheck a used collection, allowing them to use it again. Its entire purpose is to subvert this limit. Its entire purpose is to use the same collection--the same justification--to avoid a minor twist, change a die value, or add a story element.
That said, I think it's a terrible ability, not least for the reasons you and Cult of Gloom state. It's broken and it abuses Collections thematically. But as written I don't see any reason to disallow it being used this way outside of a house rule.
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For some reason I could've sworn Break the 4th said once per session but it doesn't in any older versions I have.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
From what I read in a few points, I think that you could argue using a collection per scene should be limited to different points. Using the uncle Ben thing in scenes back to back would be fine, in one fight I would say it needs to be a different story IMO.
Trapp
This'll be my last post on the matter. I guess it still just bugs me to call disallowing an action becuase it doesn't make dramatic or logical sense a house rule when the rules state the action can only be taken when it makes sense for the scene and story, To me it feels less like a house rule and more like exactly what the rule says and actually playing the role playing game.
Remember, don't turn that frown upside down! Turn it into Eldritch Power to summon our Dark Master to Spite a world that has wronged you.
to try and swerve back in the lane-
MindWanderer you said you were not a fan of Action + other Action with Min die but did you rate Attack + Defend with min die a bit higher than the others of that type?
The mountain watches the freedom of the sea and cries. The sea looks at the stability of the mountain and sighs.
I shouldn't have. Did that come across somewhere? Attack is a somewhat more valuable action than boost or hinder, but Defend is somewhat less valuable. That's better than a basic Attack but it's worse than most other Action abilities.
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To follow up that question, what about the instance where it is: Attack with Mid, Defend with Min against all Attacks against you until your next turn?
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
I didn't say anything about that one. It's situational, so I didn't feel comfortable making a blanket valuation of it. If a hero can successfully draw a lot of aggro for several enemy attacks, it's fantastic. Or the hero could end up taking his or her next turn immediately, and it's useless. It also depends on the GM and the decisions of the enemies--will they attack the defended hero, or attack someone else? Or take other actions? Would the heroes benefit if the defense was merely a deterrent? Too many factors to make a simple statement about.
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By that same argument, wouldn't that render it quite difficult to lend an accurate grade to Sabotage from the Shadow Archetype? Certainly, at it's base it functions as a Attack Mid+Hinder Min. However, it has two other modes that can complicate the variables in assessing it. Yet, it recieves no mention in favor of pointing out that Untouchable and Smoke Bombs are mutually exclusive.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
Sure. I didn't call it bad, just mediocre. I'll agree that "situational" is probably a better word.
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I think I've nailed down what parts of the guide principally strike me as flawed. I often design characters from their role in a team first, and then individually second. That leads me to place a greater value on effects that are more situational, as well as for effects that can maximize a build up over time. So I'm likely not the best to give constructive criticism, as much as an alternate view.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
in the writ up for Flier archetype.
My best character is a mystic/flier so those sections stuck with me
The mountain watches the freedom of the sea and cries. The sea looks at the stability of the mountain and sighs.
That's not "Defend with your Min die," it's "Defend against all Attacks against you using your Min die until your next turn." That's a much more powerful effect than a single-use Defend (albeit one that can target someone other than yourself).
I didn't address team dynamics, true. Optimizing team composition would be a whole other document that takes a lot of other considerations. Also it can get truly bonkers if you lean hard into synergies (e.g. mass boosts and mass summons, or abilities that damage allies and allies that absorb the damage).
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ahh... Gotcha. since that's the one on my sheet I forgot others are not so good
Here's an idea MindWanderer how about I make a new thread reposting Salamander and you (and others) rank and grade my build?
Then others can post to have their builds checked out.
I will wait for a positive reply before I post of course
The mountain watches the freedom of the sea and cries. The sea looks at the stability of the mountain and sighs.
I'd certainly respond to a "rate my build" thread, but maybe wait a bit longer. The final PDF's are just over the horizon and I'm hoping there will be changes or clarifications that will affect some of this stuff.
Sentinels Statistics Project -- Statistics updated daily!
Submit your games here!
Even if the final PDFs don't contain changes, it's better to wait and make sure that they don't rather than giving well-intentioned but possibly misinformed critique.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
Hey Sea-Envy, do you still want to make that thread?
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
Soon-ish
You can take lead if you want catDreaming
The mountain watches the freedom of the sea and cries. The sea looks at the stability of the mountain and sighs.
I got the thread started.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
i will post my build after a day or two so we can talk about one build at a time
The mountain watches the freedom of the sea and cries. The sea looks at the stability of the mountain and sighs.
MindWanderer, now with a few months' actual play experience under my belt, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Villain Approaches and Archetypes. I've learned somewhat the hard way that all combos are not equal and you can design a villain to be what you want them to be and find out in play that they are just killing machines instead of the mid-level "average" villain you intended. I find this especially to be the case when converting villains from other systems.
You know, just in case you needed a new project. ;)
Fight! 2nd edition available now.
Honestly, the "balance" in the villain rules is so disappointing that I'm not inclined to try. It's trivially easy to create a villain that's stupidly broken or one that goes down in a stiff breeze. I suppose it might be worthwhile to point out villain abilities that singlehandedly make a fight unexpectedly difficult, but that's a very different sort of task than "optimization." Plus it's always easy to nerf a villain on the fly and simply take an ability away or reduce its effectiveness, if the players are getting wrecked. GM's never have to follow the rules if they don't want to.
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I agree with MindWanderer here.
As an example, giving a villain with the Titan archetype the inherent for damage reduction based on it's challenge and the reaction to uncheck a box on it's challenge when attacked with doubles can result in something that the heroes are simply incapable of meaningfully damaging for large portions of the fight.
It's also very hard to gauge the effectiveness of a villain without playing them. As a more humorous example, I made a villain with no action abilities. The players are terrified of them, because despite the heroes having dealt reasonable damage to it it hasn't taken the attack action against them.
The villain rules are not intended for balance. They're intended to make something to fight the heroes on a footing of your choice, with other scene elements interefering in the fight.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
As a guy who is used to running more "traditional" supers RPG, that lack of balance or even real transparency before you put the villain on the table is frustrating.
My heroes fighting a team of villains is a common occurrence. Not having any idea whether it's going to be a blow-through or a 3-hour grind is becoming a pain. It can't be a scene element "on a footing of my choice" if I can't know how good a villain is beforehand.
I wasn't worried about "optimization." I just wondered if the more mechanically-minded could even point out "these are the easy approaches/archetypes" and "these are the nightmare approaches/archetypes."
Fight! 2nd edition available now.
Not really. In general though, if an Approach/Archetype is a suggested pairing, it's likely to be pretty potent.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
How do you weigh abilities that are weak on their own but get substantially better when used in combination with other abiltiies?
For a more direct answer to your question, I refer you to Tech Upgrades and Powered Suit power sources. There are two examples there of how MindWanderer rated abilities of the type you are talking about.
If you want my personal answer, which is likely on a 90 degree tangent to MindWanderers reasoning:
You might have read my comments on the Shadow archetype, where in a previous version it's various utility abilities had it rated lower than others because it wasn't good in every situation. What you're describing falls into a similar category, where there are definitely combos. Flexible Stance (exclusively from Close Quarters Combatant) really shines when used in combination with Endurance Fighting, which then chains into Inspiring Totem for a total of 3 Attacks and 3 Hinders. Which is neat. Combo based builds however tend to not be as viable, because you often just do the same thing over and over mechanically.
There's nothing explictly wrong with that, but it has a major weakness. Twists can lay down pretty substantial hinders, lock abilities, or even lock powers and qualities. Losing a Power or Quality in question can lock out one or several abilities on your sheet if you're based on using that one power to it's most, whereas losing a single Inherent ability can be devastating to making a combo work. Hinders can force you to delay entire turns before pulling off a combo.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
So when building are Twists something to avoid at all costs or should I be leaning into the system? For example, if there are Yellow abilities producing persistant bonuses that just better than their Green counterparts is it inadvisaable to plan to dip down into that while still in the green as part of the build design?
Same with the Red abilties you mention, is it worth the minor twist to get those six attacks?
I agree with Cat's basic premise: Combos can be powerful, but you only get so many abilities, so setting them up costs you versatility very easily. For instance, if you take two Red Inherent or Reaction abilities, on your turn you either use that one Red ability over and over again, or fall back on Yellow ones.
I still disagree with their love of Flexible Stance, though. Sure, with Inspiring Totem and Endurance Fightning, you can use it to get 2 Min attacks, a Mid attack, and 3 Min hinders. That's a whole lot of Min dice, though. When you're in Red, you can be using Yellow or Red abilities, such as Blinding Strike, Supersonic Streak, Heedless Blast, Live Dangerously, Field of Energy, Danger!, Towering Form, or Unload, or at least one of the many abilities that hits more than 2 targets with your Min die.
As for Twists, it's hard to say. Some GM's are more harsh than others about how they use them. If you go strictly off the suggestions in the book, they're pretty bad and should generally be avoided. Unless you're a Wild Card with at least one Collection, of course. And that Inspiring Totem+Endurance Fighting combo would cost two Twists if used in Yellow.
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Since the Flexible Stance rolls are all seperate wouldn't you be able to apply Persistent boosts to each distinct roll, potentially tripling the effectiveness of the bonus?
At what point do the Boosts become more valuable than the die size/position? How do you factor that into builds?
MindWanderer actually correct me on that recently; It's apparently a somewhat common error.
Bonuses and penalties alike only apply to the 'effect' that they are applied to, and you can't apply them to multiple rolls within the same action. You could apply your persistent bonus to one of the basic actions, but not to both using the Min die. I think you could apply it to the Hinder from Endurance Fighting, since that's the same 'effect', but don't quote me on that.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
Additional thoughts on twists to answer LBS's question...
Different players play different ways. I'll often go for a minor if it comes up for a roll, but I usually won't dip into Yellow when the condition is still Green (and if it's dire, it probably isn't Green ;-). But other folks love to roll with the twists and come up with all kinds of things. The minors aren't generally too bad, in my experience and when I'm running a game, and can be well worth it if the end result is positive enough.
It would be a good conversation to have with your GM. :-)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
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Where is this in the rules (they tend to hide these things)? Under boosts it says that boosts can only be applied once per roll, not once per action and are applied to the effect die. If the Boost is persistent why wouldn't it apply to every discrete roll as stated in the rules?
Page 22 says that mods only affect one effect die, and it was further clarified on the Letters Page to "each mod affects one specific effect".
In the case of flexible stance+endurance fighting, it would be that each instance of the min die is being used for a different effect (even if it's the same ability using it).
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
They aren't separate rolls. You make one roll and both effects get the Min die result.
Yes, a persistent bonus applies to each discrete roll, but no ability lets you make more than one standard roll during your turn (exceptions being things like Wild Card that use dice for other purposes).
I really, really wish that it was stated this way in the rulebook. I argued for it in playtesting and in review repeatedly. As written, you're absolutely correct--a mod would affect one die and everything that one die applied to. But Christopher issued the ruling Cat quoted on the podcast.
That said, he does make mistakes sometimes--he made a substantial one in the last Live game and had to retract it--and he hasn't restated this ruling since. So it could conceivably change. I don't think it will, as it would be OP that way and would interact weirdly with Twists, but it would be RAW.
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I thought someone had asked for a clarification on the podcast, but now I can't find it so I'm probably wrong. :-\
Any idea if someone submitted a letter asking about it? I mean, I'm better MindWanderer that you have, but if more folks do they might answer it? (Or maybe they're going to wait until the rules are available publicly...)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)
Got it. The wording in places is a bit opaque.
Yeah, I submitted that letter! What I said above is based on their answer to it. But this was a long time ago, certainly over a year, and since then I nagged them repeatedly to make that the rule that was actually reflected in the rulebook, but they didn't. So maybe the official rule changed. Someone could certainly ask again. (Note: I'm over 6 months behind on listening to the podcast now.)
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I think I found it in Editor's Note #40 and here are the WalkingTarget notes
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Sounds like there is some conflicting information between the RAW going to publication and a clarification buried in a relatively obscure podcast.
Is there a FAQ/errata which gathers these clarifications in one place (I would have never found that...lol)?
What would be the balance issues of using the RAW as opposed to the clarification, and vice versa?
So continuing this madness...if an attack attacks multiple targets, is it the case that the rules say my +2 persistent bonus applies to the damage of everyone I hit, but the Christopher correction says it affects only one of them?
Or is this different than 2 distinct effects cueing off the same die?
Fight! 2nd edition available now.
My understanding is you have an action which attacks all targets with a min die you apply your bonus to each target hit. However, if you additionally had Endurance Fighting that bonus on your min die would not apply to the hinder on each of targets attacked.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
It is different. The Attack against multiple targets is one single effect, being one Attack that just happens to hit multiple targets at the same time.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
That's good. A recent character change was conditioned on creating a persistent boost before an "attacks all" abilty to be a minion-sweeper.
Fight! 2nd edition available now.
That rule actually is in the book, p. 22:
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When I got the book, and started reading through the Abilities in the various Sources and Archetypes, I was more and more convinced that balance took a back seat to aesthetics and trying to enable specific small-a character archetypes.... it seems like two characters built using the same build option can be quite far apart in efficacy, and some concepts can be fully realized as starting characters while others really can't -- and it's a difference that doesn't seem to come to power level.
Looking at the sample characters, they seem to have more Powers, Qualities, and/or Abilities than what I'm coming up with, so either I'm screwing something up in the process or there are builds that come up far more effective than the ones I'm working with.
The Abilities also seem to vary quite a bit in their actual effectiveness -- some Sources or Archetypes are loaded with defensive options, others have a single defensive option that's also strictly limited. Some have multiple Green options, some have none. Etc.
It would be interesting to see the steps you're going through to see what might be going on. For example, here are the steps I documented for a character I created. (I keep this log for all my characters so I can look at how I might adjust things with a rebuild, understand any mistakes I made, etc.) Note: Not posting looking for feedback, just to provide an example of how you could share what you're doing. :-)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)
This is one of the characters, not in process format -- https://greaterthangames.com/comment/209773#comment-209773.
Different backgrounds often account for the different numbers of qualities, and then the combination of power source and archetype typically determine how many abilities and powers your character will have.
A single man
Standing alone in a field of swords
Blades borne to the unmoving air
An unchanging world as their sheathe
Preserved for eternity
This is my Origin
- Avalon, The Living Sheathe
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