Incapacitating Yourself

If Tachyon Pushes the Limits at 1 health, she gets incapped, then stands up again at full health and takes another turn, albiet with 1 card. Would the other team, in a tournament setting, get a score for that incap? 

If not, well, thats a tactic I seem a lot of Tachyon players using to keep themselves out of the danger zone healthwise.

This looks fun and entertaining.

That isn't a bad strategy with the cost, better than being hamstrung by health or waiting around to be an easy incap.  You can take a full turn, then incap yourself, stand up and take another turn.

Situational, yes, but really good.

If Tachyon stood back up and ran through a hazard that incapped her again, would the opposing team get a second victory point?

In this example, she's kind of in a zombie zone where she's incapped but she's still running around, which is weird.  After she resolves her second turn, does she drop dead right where she ends or do you move her back to where she was originally incapped?  If the attack which incapped her had over-damage, would it go like this:

incap, stand up, take second turn, move back to incap spot, then apply overage push

or

incap, apply overage push, stand up in the new spot she was pushed to, then take second turn (then move back to the spot she was pushed to?)

This is not quite as strange as you think.

Two incaps wouldn't make Tachy blink

There's no zombie runs

(unless Gloomweaver comes)

It's only the wait time that'll shrink

The rules for incapacitation are simple:  A hero that reaches zero health is incapacitated, and recovers at the start of his or her next turn.  The only difference between Tachyon while Pushing the Limits and everyone else is that her next turn comes immediately after the turn where she is incapped, instead of having to wait for everyone else to go first.  No zombie zone, a second incap would count as a second point, and she won't drop dead again.

I haven't actually played Tactics though, so maybe I'm missing something.

Nope.  That's how I saw it as well.

since she started a new turn she would stand up properly, just like any other turn after she was incapacitated.

That was the part I was overlooking.  I was viewing the second turn as an extension of the current turn rather than a whole new turn that just happened to be adjacent to the first one.  I get it now.

I recently heard about this Tachyon interaction, and I'm still confused about it.  Since it relates directly to this thread, it makes the most sense to ask here.

Per the main rulebook under "Incapacitation" pg 5: When going to zero health you:

a. Become incapacitated

b. Loose all tokens

c. Return power cards to your hand

d. Remove the move value die from the character card

e. Token flipped to incap side

f. Return used one-shots to hand

g. Resolve overkill push if any

I understand Visionary's Brain Burn - her character card specifically states that 'When Visionary would be incapacitated, she first makes the following attack.' This would allow Visionary to use any tokens she had on her card, since she pauses the sequence above before step a.

Tachyon's Pusing the Limits doesn't appear to have wording that would interrupt the sequence, so I don't understand how she gets around the FAQ pg1 heading "You pay the costs before the ability activates."  By what I see here, Tachyon would spend her last health to pay the cost of PtL, go to zero health, go through the incapacitation steps above (loosing her Pusing the Limits card in step c.), then attempts to activate the PtL ability - which she can't, since she doesn't have that card in play anymore.

Am I not seeing something about Tachyon's card or not understanding the incap rules correctly, or is this just a situation where Push the Limits was intended to work that way, and might need a slight re-wording to mention that the ability activates even if Tachyon incaps herself by using it?

I think it's because the ability granted by Push The Limit's doesn't really have any "timing" to it (and if it is, it occurs at the very end of your turn, after you resolve the rest of your incapped steps). It's not like Brain Burn where there would be an order and timing of when you'd resolve the attack. That's how I see it anyway.

Incapped characters can't make attacks, but they can take a turn.

So even when she incaps herself she can gain the benefit because nothing is there to stop her from taking a new turn.

With Thermal or Combustion they incap and can no longer make attacks, so nothing more happens.

I still don't see how it gets around paying the cost BEFORE the ability activates per the FAQ.  By paying the cost and going to health 0, Tachyon goes through the incap steps, one of which is loosing her active power cards.  If by paying the cost the ability 'sticks,' I don't see why health cost attacks don't activate.

The FAQ is still correct. You do pay the cost of 1 health before the ability activates. That is true.

The disconnect you have here is timing.

-AbZero pays 1 health to go down to 0 to make an attack. When AbZero tries to make the attack, you have to note that at 0 health, an incapped character nessesarily can't make an attack, so no attack happens and you go through the steps of removing everything.

-Tachyon pays 1 health to go down to 0 to trigger Pushing The Limits. You payed the cost, and get the effect. Now you go through the steps of being incapped.

The thing is, Pushing the Limits doesn't care if you are incapped in the same way that trying to make an attack cares. My answer my not be official, but thats how you can rationalize the rulings and make them jive with the FAQ.

Foote is right on one count, the big thing is Tactics timing and SotM timing are totally different.  You pay the cost, and are both incapacitated and gain a second turn.  No resolving them one at a time, both happen.

Just like Synaptic Interruption in Tactics can result in both Tachyon and her attacker being incapped.

Foote is wrong that the effect happens between taking damage and being incapped.  (At least his wording lends itself to that conclusion) because if that were true AZ could use his last health for Thermal Shockwave, attack then incap.  

Meh. Potato - potato. The end result is the same.

French fries?

Mashed!

After a brief chat with a guy who games in different circles than I do, I think I understand why I'm having a problem with this - I come from a Warmachine background, so, when I read rules, I want to follow them step by step in strict order.  I described the responses given to my original post, saying, "it seems like they see the paying of the health token as firmly linked to getting access to the ability - as if the text of the card comes off the card and hovers in a que while the incap procedure resolves, then that text comes back into play, whether or not the card it's written on is still in play."  My buddy looked at me for a second, then pointed out that I just described the 'stack' concept from Magic the Gathering.  Looking at the incap procedure as a series of effects that are placed on the stack, then resolved from most recent to first does allow Tachyon to pay her last health and then use Push the Limits.  Looking at the incap procedure as something that interrupts play when a character goes to 0 health results in her not having any active power cards, despite having paid a cost trying to activate one, and therefore no Pushing the Limits.  So, I get where the other opinion is coming from now... however...

This discussion has made me seriously read the rules & FAQ regarding incaps and paying health costs - there are several examples / rulings that show that paying the cost for an ability does not equal gaining use of that ability (usually due to incap).  I still read that first page of the FAQ (with it's link to the forum post) as being clear that paying the cost of an ability does not grant use of that ability past being incaped.  Here's the text, pasted directly from the FAQ:

"if a character with only one health point left activates an ability which costs a health point, they would pay the cost first, which would result in them having zero health points and therefore being incapacitated before the ability’s effects ever occurred. they would not activate the ability, have it do its effect, and then become incapacitated afterwards." (bold selection is my formatting)

To say that Tachyon gets around this by both incapping & getting the effect at the same time seems to not fit with that description.

The second item I'll bring up is that several times people have posted that 'incapped characters cannot make attacks'... and, while I agree that it is certainly the intent of the desingers for an incapped character to actually BE incapacitated per the common meaning of the word, there's nothing in either the main rules or the FAQ that actually says incapped characters can't make attacks.  There are rules about in game effects like hazards leave play when the power card isn't active anymore, and it's rare that a character would be incapped during their own turn (but certainly possible due to redirects, hazards, & more).  However, if we go with the 'stack' concept, say that AbZero pays for his thermal shockwave (thus, putting it on the stack, independent of the power card)  I don't see why he wouldn't make the attack even if he's otherwise 'dead.'

I'll note, I'm not advocating for 'zombie attacks' - but I do think that using a character's last health and gaining a power use at the same time has more problems than just having the incap procedure work as a hard interrupt of that character's turn.  I also see it limiting design space for future health abilities that shouldn't be used after being incapped.  I'm okay playing it either way, as long as I understand it beforehand.

The pushing the limits ruling is a change from playtesting, so the FAQ is probably outdated here.

I would resolve this with the effect activating once Tachyon is incapped, but before her cards leave play.

In that way she could no longer act, but can receive the benefit from the effect, because all it does is give her a new turn.

Note that this is me trying to figure out how a new ruling fits into the rulings we have, because until we get a ruling that says you can Thermal Shockwave with your last health and the attack goes through it doesn't, because that is the current ruling on Thermal.

I appreciate the effort.  I'm not particularly for this or for the HUD glasses change that's apparently also in the works, but if that level of Tachyon is seen as her properly balanced state, I'm happy to play it.

6 lightspeed barrage boosted attacks in one round might net you 3 incapacitations, it would be an interesting gamble.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with Thermal Shockwave activating and then AZ going out.       This is a game of superheroic combat.  Sacrifice is one of the cornerstones of superheroic combat.     Abilities should active the moment they are paid for.  

.....what? Did I miss something? What HUD glasses change?

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/109102#comment-109102

Oh. Well that's how I always thought they worked anyway. So that's not too much of a change from my perspective. I've seen Multi-Lightspeed Barrages at tournaments already and didn't bat an eye.