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illusionary demon vs the whole gang

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massimokriya
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illusionary demon vs the whole gang

the dreamer's demon destroys an ongoing card when destroyed, while chronoranger's bounty destroys a 4hp target when its target leaves play. I put the bounty on the demon.

I considered "leave play" as a broader but simultaneous version of "destroyed", but I wanted to check my interpretation was correct:

1. I reduce the illusionary demon to 0 hp

2. the demon destroys the ongoing bounty and simultaneously the bounty destroys a different, 4hp projection

Alternatively:

1. I reduce the illusionary demon to 0 hp

2. the demon destroys the ongoing bounty while destroyed but before leaving play, hence the bounty does nothing

 

 

 


Powerhound_2000
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In the video game when Illusory Demon is destroyed you get an option of a target to take out for "The Whole Gang", it destroys itself, and then Illusory Demon requires the players to choose what Ongoing to destroy.  


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Arcanist Lupus
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Nothing in SotM happens simultaneously. Start and end of turn effects happen in the order that the cards entered play, the players get to choose the order of multiple target damage or destroy effects (which makes Dreamer's demon useful to have around when using End of Days, as you can destroy all villain cards, destroy the demon last, and use the demon to take out End of Days before hero cards are destroyed). Triggered effects are also player choice, but triggers that react to other cards entering or leaving play happen before triggered effects on the card itself do.

Also, cards stay in play until the triggers on their own card are done (the rational being that card abilities stop working when the card leaves play, so it has to stay in play or it would cancel its own ability ) which is very important for Explosives Wagon

The way triggered effects work is a bit of a mess, but there isn't a good way to fix them without completely revamping SotM's rules and eliminating desired interactions, and the minutia aren't important all that frequently, so we deal with it, or house-rule it as we see fit.


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massimokriya
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Powerhound_2000 wrote:

In the video game when Illusory Demon is destroyed you get an option of a target to take out for "The Whole Gang", it destroys itself, and then Illusory Demon requires the players to choose what Ongoing to destroy.  

 

does it give you the option to not use the bounty and let it be the ongoing to be destroyed?

Powerhound_2000
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You can choose not to destroy another target but the "The Whole Gang" is still gone before the Ongoing destruction on Illusory Demon takes affect. 


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
massimokriya
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so what if there's 2 illusory demons and I use the bounty (attached to the 1st demon) to destroy the 2nd demon, then can the 2nd demon choose the bounty to destroy as its ongoing?

Powerhound_2000
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No, "The Whole Gang" would be destroyed by that point.  


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Arcanist Lupus
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Powerhound_2000 wrote:

No, "The Whole Gang" would be destroyed by that point.  

Have you confirmed this?  The wording on The Whole Gang is " you may destroy a Target with 4 or fewer HP. Then, destroy this card."  To me, that reads that the Demon's ability will interrupt the Bounty's before it destroys itself.  But as I said before, triggers in SotM confuse me.

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massimokriya
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For the 1 demon option: based on AL's first post, the card that is triggered resolves itself. so this agreed with PH's first post that the bounty destroys a 4hp target and then destroys itself before the demon can target it as an ongoing.

in other words, I understood both posts as meaning:

1. demon dies and starts to leave play

2. the bounty triggers, destroys a 4hp target, then destroys itself.

3. the demon destroys an ongoing and leaves play

 

For the 2 demons option:

based on this, I think it follows that, with 2 demons:

1. 1st demon dies and starts to leave play

2. the bounty triggers, destroys 2nd demon

3. 2nd demon triggers, destroys an ongoing (2 if there are 2 ongoings). you can choose the bounty because it's still in play. for the bounty to destroy itself the entire 2nd demon trigger has to resolve entirely, then the bounty would destroy itself.

4. 1st demon destroys an ongoing (since the other demon is gone, it destroys only 1 ongoing) and leaves play

 

but PH seems to disagree while AL seems to agree.

Matchstickman
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I agree that with 2 demons "The Whole Gang" would still be in play when the second Demon was being destroyed despite the affect on it being in use.

...

And the app agrees


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MindWanderer
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Hm... I'm not so sure the app is doing it right.  If the trigger for the bounty were "destroyed," then sure, because cards remain in play during their own destruction; you should be able to choose whether the demon or the bounty trigger first.  But since it's trigged on "leaves play," then the destruction should resolve fully, then the leaving play, so the demon should go off first and be able to target the bounty.


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