The forums moved on March 1, 2021. Please read this page for more information.

How much damage is dealt?

16 posts / 0 new
Last post
ornithopter
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
Joined: Oct 11, 2018
How much damage is dealt?

Okay, this has definitely been covered before, and probably many times, but I didn't see the details I was looking for in the clarifications, and I wasn't able to search it up here or on the BGG forums, so I'm gonna ask.

I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what it means for damage to be "dealt". I came up with a somewhat complicated scenario that I think covers all my questions, and my understanding of how it would all work out. Please let me know if I've gone wrong anywhere. (Other than in my strategy. I am well aware this sequence of actions would make no sense to actually perform.)

AZ has both modules, Focused Aperatures, Cryo Chamber, and Thermal Shockwave. He has dealt no cold damage prior to this this turn. He uses Thermal Shockwave on:

  1. Himself - He deals 1 damage. Focused Apertures increase that to 2 damage dealt. Cryo Chamber increases damage dealt to him, that makes 3 damage dealt. Null-point Calibrations Unit says instead of taking damage, he heals, but it says nothing about the amount of damage dealt, so that's still 3.
  2. Baron Blade - Again, he deals 1, plus one for the Apertures makes 2. Baron Blade has a Mobile Defense Platform, so he's immune. Glossary says imunity means his HP can't be reduced, but he can still be targetted, which I take to mean 2 damage is still dealt.
  3. Mister Fixer - As before, 1+1=2 is dealt. Fixer has Pipe Wrench and Driving Mantis. Pipe Wrench says "reduce damage dealt to," but Mantis addresses damage that "would be dealt." I read this as Mantis kicking in before Pipe Wrench can do anything. Redirected damage, as I understand it, changes target but not origin, meaning the damage is not being dealt by Fixer, and thus Pipe Wrench won't increase it. This is AZ dealing 2 damage to a target of Fixer's choosing. Fixer chooses Legacy, who has Fortitude. Fortitude reduces damage dealt, so in the end AZ deals 1 damage to Legacy.
  • Bonus hypothetical: AZ instead deals Fixer 3 damage. This is not 2 or less damage that would be dealt to Fixer, so Pipe Wrench kicks in, reducing it to 2. This is now 2 or less damage that would be dealt, so it can be redirected.

That's all three targets. Assuming I was correct before, Thermal Shockwave now deals 3+2+1=6 fire damage to AZ. Cryo Chamber reduces this by 1, so if we were tracking this damage (e.g., toward a Coolant Blast somehow), it would count as 5 damage dealt by AZ to AZ. Thanks to the Isothermic Transducer, AZ then deals 5 cold damage plus 1 from the Apertures to the Mobile Defense Platform, which only has 1 hp. I believe this is still 6 damage dealt, and not just 1.

  • Bonus hypothetical from the mirror universe: The Scholar is 1 hp shy of his max. He has Solid to Liquid and Mortal Form to Energy, and uses his inate power. My understanding is that unike the situation where a target goes below 0 hp, his hp max stops him from gaining the second hp from Solid to Liquid, and so he can only deal 1 damage via Mortal Form to Energy.

So how'd I do?

Oh! Additional question, because I am unending: Setback is dealt 2 damage from Friendly Fire. Through two different "reduce damage dealt to ___ by 1" effects that I don't know what they are because I only just came up with this and haven't had time to plan it out in great detail like the other thing, this is reduced to 0 damage dealt. Friendly Fire says "Whenever Setback is dealt damage this way," which I take to mean that being dealt 0 damage counts, in contrast to, e.g., KNYFE's For The Greater Good, which says "If she takes damage this way." I am aware that several cards were errata'ed from (approximately) the first wording to (approximately) the second, but I have not found any record of that change being made to Friendly Fire. 

Matchstickman
Matchstickman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Apr 10, 2012

Sorry, but you fell at the first hurdle.

  1. AZ- Damage dealt means the amount of HP a target loses, so having Null Point in play turns all damage into healing, meaning you deal 0 damage there.
  2. Blade- Damage dealt means the amount of HP a target loses, so having an MDP in play stops all damage to Blade, meaning you also deal 0 damage there.
  3. Fixer- Kind of right. The amount dealt is correct but Damage Reduction kicks in before Redirection, so the Pipe Wrench will reduce the damage to 1 first, then it can be redirected. When the damage is redirected all bonuses and reduction are recalculated for the new target so the Pipe Wrench DR would "go away" and 2 damage would be aimed at Legacy, who then reduces it by 1 thanks to fortitude.

The end result for Thermal Shockwave is 1 cold damage has been deal, which would mean 1-1(due to Cryo Chamber) so no fire damage is dealt to AZ, and Isothermic Transducer would NOT kick in, because no fire damage was dealt.

Your bonus Mr Fixer question is as you suspect, but again DR before Redirection so it only checks once.

Your bonus Setback question is covered under the other explanations, you need to reduce HP to deal damage so the 2DR would prevent Setback from gaining tokens.

 

On the plus side, your The Scholar theory is absolutely correct, you would only heal 1 and thus only deal 1.

 

Also, welcome to the forum! I hope I have not discouraged you from posting again with my pretty blunt rules lawyering.


Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all

Temporary image until an H emoticon is added!

Pydro
Pydro's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: May 19, 2012

Welcome to the forums!


Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"

Ameena
Ameena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Oct 15, 2012

Hey, welcome to the forum :). Easy way to remember the whole "was damage dealt?" thing - if no hp was lost, no damage was dealt :D.

Note also that if damage is redirected it is recalculated which can make a difference if, say a Nemesis bonus is involved, for example if the Chairman tries to hit, say, Nightmist for three points of damage but she has her Amult out and discards to redirect it to the Operative, the Chairman now deals her four points of damage because he's now hitting a target who shares his Nemesis symbol (same for the Ennead/Anubis if you can get any of those to hit each other). But targets never gain a Nemesis bonus for hitting themselves, because that would be silly (and somewhat unfair on those heroes who tend to hit themselves a lot) ;).


I am the Wordweaver...

Basically, I like writing stuff ;)

ornithopter
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
Joined: Oct 11, 2018

Matchstickman wrote:

I hope I have not discouraged you from posting again with my pretty blunt rules lawyering.

Nah, that's exactly what I wanted. I'm not interested in having shown up with the right answers as long as I leave with them.

"Damage dealt is HP lost" is certainly much simpler than what I was doing, so that's nice. It's also less versatile, but win some/lose some.

My error kept one of my questions off the table: I deal 5 damage to something with 1 hit point. Is that 1 or 5 damage dealt? Several references to "0 or fewer hp" imply the later, but as we've seen, my sense of what the rules mean is not always right.

Matchstickman wrote:

Your bonus Setback question is covered under the other explanations, you need to reduce HP to deal damage so the 2DR would prevent Setback from gaining tokens.

No distinction between not dealing damage and "0 damage dealt," then. Dang. Again, simpler, but less versatile.

Matchstickman wrote:

Damage Reduction kicks in before Redirection, so the Pipe Wrench will reduce the damage to 1 first, then it can be redirected. When the damage is redirected all bonuses and reduction are recalculated for the new target so the Pipe Wrench DR would "go away" and 2 damage would be aimed at Legacy

Wow. Okay, this is actually more complicated than what I was doing, and it seems worse? Does this mean that a "reduce next damage dealt" is spent when damage is redirected, or does it get restored as part of the DR "going away"? And if the Pipe Wrench DR "goes away," when the damage is redirected, does that mean Driving Mantis effectively redirects up to 2+(amount of DR), since DR lowers that damage to 2 and then "goes away" raising it back to 2+DR?

ornithopter
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
Joined: Oct 11, 2018

Ameena wrote:

the Chairman now deals [the Operative] four points of damage because he's now hitting a target who shares his Nemesis symbol (same for the Ennead/Anubis if you can get any of those to hit each other). 

I saw that nemesis clarification, and I'm having trouble making sense of it on a story level. Like, maybe the Ennead are a bunch of in-fighting jerks, but Chairman/Operative makes no sense to me.

jffdougan
jffdougan's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 5 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Oct 09, 2013

The operative has ambitions of taking over someday....

Matchstickman
Matchstickman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Apr 10, 2012

ornithopter wrote:
Nah, that's exactly what I wanted. I'm not interested in having shown up with the right answers as long as I leave with them.

Huzzahs!

ornithopter wrote:
Wow. Okay, this is actually more complicated than what I was doing, and it seems worse? Does this mean that a "reduce next damage dealt" is spent when damage is redirected, or does it get restored as part of the DR "going away"? And if the Pipe Wrench DR "goes away," when the damage is redirected, does that mean Driving Mantis effectively redirects up to 2+(amount of DR), since DR lowers that damage to 2 and then "goes away" raising it back to 2+DR?

The Pipe Wrench/Driving Mantis combo does exactly what you think it does, potentially redirecting 3 damage with those 2 cards alone, more if you have more DR from somewhere else!

"Reduce next damage" is used up if any damage hits the target, even if it is redirected afterwards (especially if we're talking about Driving Mantis style redirection where the damage has to be below a certain threshold to be redirected- the temporary DR being needed to get below that threshold).


Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all

Temporary image until an H emoticon is added!

ornithopter
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
Joined: Oct 11, 2018

Matchstickman wrote:

The Pipe Wrench/Driving Mantis combo does exactly what you think it does, potentially redirecting 3 damage with those 2 cards alone, more if you have more DR from somewhere else!

Oooh. Fun!

Matchstickman wrote:

"Reduce next damage" is used up if any damage hits the target, even if it is redirected afterwards (especially if we're talking about Driving Mantis style redirection where the damage has to be below a certain threshold to be redirected- the temporary DR being needed to get below that threshold).

Just to make sure I'm understanding this right: You hit me for 3. I have 2 nextDR and can redirect damage dealt to me regaredless of amount. The order of operations is that I reduce the damage to 1, redirect it to a new target, and then the damage is recalculated, meaning it's back up to 3 (plus or minus whatever effects on the new target), but my nextDR is still gone.

carnilius
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 7 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Feb 11, 2014

ornithopter wrote:

My error kept one of my questions off the table: I deal 5 damage to something with 1 hit point. Is that 1 or 5 damage dealt? Several references to "0 or fewer hp" imply the later, but as we've seen, my sense of what the rules mean is not always right.

5 damage is dealt.  Since it is a single instance of damage, the target is reduced to -4 HP before being destroyed.  This is particularly relevant if the target is indestructible such as with Fixed Point, but also for things that care about amount of damage dealt.

Ameena
Ameena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Oct 15, 2012

It's also why some targets have effects that trigger when they are "reduced to 0hp or fewer", a phrase which wouldn't be necessary if you had to stop at zero ;). Note that you can get around these if you have an insta-kill effect such as Sucker Punch or Cornered Beast, because then you're outright destroying the target, not reducing its hp >:).


I am the Wordweaver...

Basically, I like writing stuff ;)

Ensign53
Ensign53's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Jul 08, 2016

As for the nemesis bonus on team mates, it's easier to think of it as a "I can't believe you hit me!" Kind of instance.  The sentinels get the damage increase if they hit each other, and story-wise it would make sense for them to take more damage because they weren't expecting a sneak attack from Medico, for example.

Ameena
Ameena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Oct 15, 2012

It also means you can have Medico put out Hippocratic Oath and then try to deal damage to one of the other Sentinels which will instead heal them for <damage+1> hp :D.


I am the Wordweaver...

Basically, I like writing stuff ;)

Blackfang108
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
Playtester
Joined: May 31, 2016

Ameena wrote:

It also means you can have Medico put out Hippocratic Oath and then try to deal damage to one of the other Sentinels which will instead heal them for <damage+1> hp :D.

Note: you don't have to heal the target you attack.

So, let's say you play Horrifying Dichotomy.

 

Dr Medico is going to deal 1 target 3 damage.  You select one of the Setinels.  So Now he's dealing 3+1+4 damage to Writhe.  Now, Hippocratic Oath triggers, and now you choose one target to heal for 4 hp.  Any target.  How's Heroic Infinitor's HP looking?

Ameena
Ameena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Oct 15, 2012

Ooh yeah, good point >:).


I am the Wordweaver...

Basically, I like writing stuff ;)

Blackfang108
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 4 months ago
Playtester
Joined: May 31, 2016

Ameena wrote:

Ooh yeah, good point >:).

You could target Dr Medico with Parse's Critical Multiplier, and that would raise the healing.