I said something similar when the expansion was released (or when I got it in my hands). There was no unifying agenda for the Villains to fight together, there was no theme, no reason why there are together. The reply I got then was the description on the back of the box:
The many villains from the Multiverse have been bested by the Freedom Five or Dark Watch or the Prime Wardens or even heroes not from a particular team. Many of those villains are prideful and would not deign to work with others, as their goals would not align. However, some of them have seen the value of cooperating towards a common goal. And those have joined forces, even at cross purposes, to defeat the heroes who have harried them for so long.
I ended up creating reasons why a team was together before each game and putting them in order accordingly. Like FILTER being the main Villain and hiring Revocorp (Plauge Rat) and/or Ambuscade/Greazer for the task (so at least one 'alien' hero playing). Biomancer manipulating Bugbear and being assisted by zhu long in getting X thing from the Heroes.
One thing the base game did great was giving alternate victory conditions to the Villains (Warlod Voss and Baron Blade), helped a lot with the theme. Then it was not really followed through. We have Gloomweaver, Kaargra, Deadline and Dreamer. Spite could have had a victory condition if he killed all the victims. Apostate could auto trigger apocalypse if he had enough relics. Akash too looks like a Villain that wants to accompolish something and the Heroes are there to stop it.
Looks like Oblivaeon will have this kind of stuff with the missions. Hope it's enough to make the game mod fun!
We’ve gotten background that various villains from VotM did end up working together in the Letters Page. It may not be anything lasting or a set team. As to alternative win conditions I don’t think a majority of villains need theme wise and I think there would be limits as to how much you could keep doing without it coming across as being forced. Spite really wouldn’t make sense to have one as he honestly wouldn’t satisfied having just killed all the victims he wants to kill the heroes too.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
It would be victory through demoralization. Spite is clearly taunting Wraith in one of the cards, so the theme that he is not just killing like an animal but with a purpose is there. Now making sacrifices to save the victims make more sense gameplay-wise.
Yeah, there's at definitely some story behind the characters in Villains. For the life of me, even having listened through all of the Letters Page, I don't remember most of their crossovers. *shrugs*
Fully admit this is a personal gripe, though, and totally understand why someone would disagree with it. FWIW, Greazer is still thematically my favorite Vengeance villain on his own.
So the heroes just give up because Spite murdered X innocents sound even worse to me.
Haha it doesn't need to be that straighforward. Dealing psychic damage when a victim dies kinda brings the point across of heroes taking a toll at failing. You can make it a win condition by making the damage increase exponentially (4 damage to all heroes for 1 victim, 8 for the second, 16 for the third, etc). You can make 'special' victims, like someone close to the hero, that if that victim dies they lose, they failed as a hero and Spite escapes to another city.
I mean, there are great examples in comics of heroes fighting a Villain and reflecting how close they are of becoming the other side of the same coin. Fittingly, I think the most popular are Batman and Daredevil.
Yeah you’re not really convincing me with this Spite idea. At best I might agree to seeing a mechanic like Potential Sidekick for all victims so you try to save them but an escalating damage as more victims are killed still doesn’t fully resolve issues Spite has overall.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Yeah, I almost never save any victims against Spite. He's just about as likely to kill them in the "safe" house as he is when they're just out, so why go to the trouble of saving them?
Not a very heroic perspective, I know. Parse is probably the only one who would agree with me. I can see the rest of the heroes doing their best to save victims and Parse just being like "You guys know this is really inefficient."
I'm not trying to resolve anything, just pointing out why I think some charactes are more fun to face from a thematic point of view. And why I think Vengeance is more exciting than VotM despite VotM being stronger mechanically.
VotM villains are missing the inherent teamwork that comes across in Vengeance but you’d be hard pressed to convince me each of the decks aren’t as good thematically just as much as the Vengeance villians.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Biomancer always makes sense. Doesn't matter if others intended to work with him or not, they are acting according to his plan all the same.
Someone needs to make that meme-image. A steeple-fingered Biomancer looking all menaching in his cloak, with the standard meme text under it saying:'Yes... Exactly as planned'
They're competing to see which of them is the best at hunting down heroes?
I saw the Villains villains less as teaming up and more just happening to attack the heroes all at the same time.
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I said something similar when the expansion was released (or when I got it in my hands). There was no unifying agenda for the Villains to fight together, there was no theme, no reason why there are together. The reply I got then was the description on the back of the box:
I ended up creating reasons why a team was together before each game and putting them in order accordingly. Like FILTER being the main Villain and hiring Revocorp (Plauge Rat) and/or Ambuscade/Greazer for the task (so at least one 'alien' hero playing). Biomancer manipulating Bugbear and being assisted by zhu long in getting X thing from the Heroes.
One thing the base game did great was giving alternate victory conditions to the Villains (Warlod Voss and Baron Blade), helped a lot with the theme. Then it was not really followed through. We have Gloomweaver, Kaargra, Deadline and Dreamer. Spite could have had a victory condition if he killed all the victims. Apostate could auto trigger apocalypse if he had enough relics. Akash too looks like a Villain that wants to accompolish something and the Heroes are there to stop it.
Looks like Oblivaeon will have this kind of stuff with the missions. Hope it's enough to make the game mod fun!
We’ve gotten background that various villains from VotM did end up working together in the Letters Page. It may not be anything lasting or a set team. As to alternative win conditions I don’t think a majority of villains need theme wise and I think there would be limits as to how much you could keep doing without it coming across as being forced. Spite really wouldn’t make sense to have one as he honestly wouldn’t satisfied having just killed all the victims he wants to kill the heroes too.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
It would be victory through demoralization. Spite is clearly taunting Wraith in one of the cards, so the theme that he is not just killing like an animal but with a purpose is there. Now making sacrifices to save the victims make more sense gameplay-wise.
So the heroes just give up because Spite murdered X innocents sound even worse to me.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Yeah, there's at definitely some story behind the characters in Villains. For the life of me, even having listened through all of the Letters Page, I don't remember most of their crossovers. *shrugs*
Fully admit this is a personal gripe, though, and totally understand why someone would disagree with it. FWIW, Greazer is still thematically my favorite Vengeance villain on his own.
I mean, there are great examples in comics of heroes fighting a Villain and reflecting how close they are of becoming the other side of the same coin. Fittingly, I think the most popular are Batman and Daredevil.
Yeah you’re not really convincing me with this Spite idea. At best I might agree to seeing a mechanic like Potential Sidekick for all victims so you try to save them but an escalating damage as more victims are killed still doesn’t fully resolve issues Spite has overall.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Yeah, I almost never save any victims against Spite. He's just about as likely to kill them in the "safe" house as he is when they're just out, so why go to the trouble of saving them?
Not a very heroic perspective, I know. Parse is probably the only one who would agree with me. I can see the rest of the heroes doing their best to save victims and Parse just being like "You guys know this is really inefficient."
I'm not trying to resolve anything, just pointing out why I think some charactes are more fun to face from a thematic point of view. And why I think Vengeance is more exciting than VotM despite VotM being stronger mechanically.
VotM villains are missing the inherent teamwork that comes across in Vengeance but you’d be hard pressed to convince me each of the decks aren’t as good thematically just as much as the Vengeance villians.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Biomancer always makes sense. Doesn't matter if others intended to work with him or not, they are acting according to his plan all the same.
Someone needs to make that meme-image. A steeple-fingered Biomancer looking all menaching in his cloak, with the standard meme text under it saying:
'Yes... Exactly as planned'
http://ask-sotm.tumblr.com/post/168925769586/more-like-biomemecer-am-i-right-folks
(Sentinels Tumblr is a very amusing place.)
"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."
Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.
Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.
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