Bunker's Modes Need Reworking

Huh, since you have mentioned it, yes, I have read your guide (some time ago) and am aware of your numbers. But thing is we are working on different assumptions. I assume that you start the game with whatever you have and you have to spend an unknown number of turns until you can get what you need to get into Turret. You are assuming that everything I am saying to focus on those turns (for a future payoff) delays Turret mode. I agree that to optimize damage you should aim for the earliest Turret mode possible, but the turns reaching that point shouldn't be dead turns (or better, build up turns). I assume you play Gatling/Omni sometime before you have the final card you need for the Turret set up.

Btw, "proven" is a really big fat word to drop around. The problem is the assumptions you are working on. Using your same model but considering playing only Grenade, Omni Cannon and Turret, shooting Omni every turn for 7 damage, it trumps what you have there. Same amount of turns for set up, higher damage output. The problem is the number of turns you can shoot Omni for 7, but still, the number changes considering that. But even then, if you delay Turret 1 turn to add Omni to the set up, it's worth it depending on the number of cards you can ditch into it. Since you count you lose the 3 damage of Flak the turn you shoot Omni plus, say, 4 more from the earlier turn you would have gotten from Flak+Turret, you need to be able to drop more than 3 cards on Omni to make it worthwhile the damage.

Played some dummy hands with both power mentioned before, but this power is the one that worked better:

Reboot: At the start of your next turn, you may play a Mode card. If you do, draw two cards

And I really really liked it (the other power was meh tbh, this one is much better). No need to reword cards and Modes become part of Bunker's engine. Need to try it in some full games, but looks promising! It does some crazy stuff like making Recharge draw 5 cards the turn it's played off this power, Upgrade drawing cards it can play better than the one you had in hand. I think the current ruling states that you would not be able to draw cards if you play Turret, right? Still it's nice that you can use Turret to activate this power and nitro-switch into a new Mode.

But that is just it, with your suggestion, it doesn't work out like that. You are proposing an extra card when you play a Mode. This won't help at all with Turret Mode (unless you change the wording to draw first), and in Recharge Mode you aren't playing any cards, and you want to leave Recharge Mode once you get your Turret Mode setup (in which case you have to calculate whether or not it is worth playing Gatling Gun). So, the only time you have a chance to use that extra card draw is when you play Upgrade Mode. However, the entire point of Upgrade Mode is to play your cards, and the extra play allows you to play cards you wouldn't normally play. So, your fix to Bunker is to give him an extra 2 damage if he plays Upgrade Mode and he draws a card that he already has. Very limited.

Yes, I am aware of the numbers, and I did mention what needs to take place for it to be worth it. The numbers do apply in that case. Playing Omni-Cannon instead of Flak only nets you 3 damage a turn at the cost of three cards. That requires a lot of cards in order to maintain that output. With a hand of 9 cards, you only get that output for 3 turns, something that can easily be made up with Flak Cannon. It is never worth it to draw and delay Turret Mode for specifically that reason. The only time it would be worth it is if it happens to occur. As I said in the guide, if you have the cards, and you are playing a longer game (most likekly at least 7 rounds), then it might be worth it.

Except that it is a lot more than 6 turns. If you take my example as the start of the game, then you actually won't gain anything with Gatling Gun, because you will run out of cards before it gains on the damage. You would need to be drawing cards for several turn before that just to make it worth it.

However, that isn't the point. The numbers are so close anyways that to say that you can "fix" Bunker by keeping an extra 2 damage is a stretch. If you were saying that you want the extra cards in order to get to a full Turret Mode faster, fine, I can somewhat see that. But to say that Bunker is now fixed with an extra 2 damage that might not even happen, and might not actually increase his damage output and you would have to do a lot of calculations just to prove it, just doesn't help.

I would put Bunker up against Wraith most of the time (ignoring other abilities at present, since we are only talking about damage). Bunker can get setup in 2 turns, which Wraith can too if she uses 2 Impromptu, which means she needs the other two to do it again. If she gets no help, she needs 4 turns (and all 4 cards), while Bunker only needs 3. Bunker can prepare for a board wipe just as fast or faster. However, if you aren't preparing for it, Bunker usually has the extra card draws ready to go regardless. Not to mention Decom Hardware that brings anything back and Ammo Drop that can give him all the cards he needs.

I wanted to point out that your suggestion was essentially what I said (Power: Play a Mode card), but with drawing cards (and a little weaker for Turret Mode). And this was your reaction to it:

In both, you are gaining the extra Mode by using a power, so it isn't in your play phase. Also, You are not eliminating the first turn penalty, since in my version you are playing it a turn sooner. All you added was the card draw, and the abilitiy to play a Mode that you drew the previous turn, at the cost of some damage from Turret Mode.

However, by making the card draw dependent on playing a power, I think you are actually hindering Bunker not helping him. If you don't have a Mode, you get nothing, while Initialize will get you a card and help you get that Mode faster. Every turn that you don't play a Mode, you are actually gaining more cards with his base power. With your power, you can only draw one card a turn unless you play a Mode.

Regardless, all of this gets back to what I said before, it is not about Bunker's weakness, it is about playstyle weakness. This isn't to say that a playstyle is weaker, just that we are trying to fix the "weak" link in our playstyle. According to you, using Gatling Gun and Omni-Cannon is essential to Bunker and your fixes will reflect that. To me, it isn't, which is why it isn't such a big deal. This is why I also feel that we won't reach an agreement, but nothing wrong with that.

And now for something completely different: Instead of "until the start of your next turn," we could try "until Bunker uses another power." This could add in tons of possibilites, and keep it going through Recharge Mode and Upgrade Mode.

For example: "Increase Bunker's damage by one until he uses a power." Gatling Gun now doing 3 damage a turn in Recharge Mode or Upgrade Mode can be huge, but if you decide to use another gun with it, the damage goes down. This can drastically change how Bunnker play and make the other Modes much more useful.

"Reduce damage to Bunker by 1 until he uses a power." This could make him much more of a tank, at the cost of damage.

...and things like that.

Wraith:
1st turn 5 damage (Impromptu+razor+targeting computer) = total 5
2nd turn 5 damage+2 DR (belt) = total 10
3rd turn 8 damage (kinves) = total 18
and so on, +8 damage each turn.

Imba character wins. Bunker is never ahead in the total damage dealt (and she gets some damage reduction in the process to boot).
And let's not forget that Wraith will still be drawing cards and playing them. If she has been playing Infrared Eyepiece beforehand she has as much or more cards than Bunker unless he has spent every turn in Recharge Mode or playing Auxiliary Power Source. And if he has, he has spent several turns doing nothing for the team. And anyway, Wraith has as much chances as having the cards she needs in hand as Bunker since she needs one more but she can search for it and she will be drawing as much cards (though her damage will be a bit lower if she has to search for other cards). For what it's worth, I play with Wraith nerfed nowadays, same as Legacy.

Reboot: At the start of your next turn, you may play a Mode card. If you do, draw two cards

The difference with with "Play a Mode card" is that you can do shenanigans with it played during your power phase. You can play Recharge, get an extra card, 1DR and destroy it at the start of your next turn. Similar with Turret Mode, you can use it for a situational +1 damage on a weapon. The way  "Play a Mode card" overlaps is with Upgrade Mode, you don't need it to speed yourself into Turret Mode. That's what I don't like about it. And the card draw is important since it's a direct benefit for playing Mode cards. The first turn penalty is eliminated with Reboot since you play it at the start of turn, so you still have your Play and Power phase to go.

Yes, Initialize is a more reliable power. But note that I mentioned two different versions of the power, one straight better than Initialize and this other one with a tradeoff. I dummy tried both ones and like this one better, let's say it was more exciting and fun for me and drop it at that and that I recommend to try it out.

I intially typed up a very long post countering each of your points, but now I realize there is point in it if you are going to use language like that. However, there is one thing I want to address, and that is regarding playstyle.

Yes, I chose my words carefully. If someone is looking to change a hero to make them more efficient according to them, then there is a "problem" in their "playstyle" that they are "fixing." Exactly what that "problem" is is dependent on the person themselves, and not just an objective analysis.

Objective analysis is important, but it just doesn't apply here. Can you really calculate the effectivness of Adhesive Foam Grenade? Of course not. There are so many variables that to create an objective analysis and prove what little tweaks can make things overall better would be incredibly difficult. The only people who would even be qualified to talk about it would be the top tier players who already know how to gain every little bit of effectiveness out of Bunker, and I am not sure if there are even players like that.

Most of the players come from the "casual" players. At this level, objective effectiveness means a lot less than playstyle effectiveness. This in no way means that a certain playstyle isn't effective, but rather that the percieved "weakness" is hindering the experience.

I am purposely not taking your "complaints," but I will deal with a common one. Bunker is so slow becuause you need to play: Grenade Launcher, Flak Cannon, Turret Mode, Ammo Drop, Gatling Gun, and Heavy Plating to be fully setup.

Now, from a pure damage standpoint will this get the most damage? Not necessarily. You would have to run the numbers to see if Gatling Gun was worth it, but Heavy Plating wouldn't be. Does this mean that it is less effective? Honestly, I can't say. Maybe Heavy plating will keep Bunker alive longer. Maybe drawing backup cards with Ammo Drop will make him recover faster. Maybe being able to deal 10 damage to a single target in one turn can save the day. There are too many variables to consider. I can make the calculations to see if it deals the most damage the fastest, but that doesn't detract from his overall effectiveness.

Let's say someone feels that the only way to enter Turret Mode is with all of those cards, and he also feels that Bunker is to slow. Does his "playstyle" need a "fix"? Yes. Is this a bad thing? Not in the slightest. The perception of effectiveness based on what you want to accomplish is what needs to be "fixed." This in no way means that a certain playstyle is less effective based on different decisions. Obviously a playstyle can be less effective, but try proving that.

A big part of this idea is the need for a fix and how effective it is. For example, let's say we don't like Bunker's first turn penatly for Recharge Mode. he has his starting hand of 4 cards, plays Recharge Mode, and draws three cards. Bunker is now more effective, but by how much. I am not going to run through all of the numbers, and all of the ideas (like how it might give more damage with Gatling Gun if it is drawn), but here is one set of numbers. Let's say Bunker is looking for 1 specific card, and there are 3 of them in the deck. Now, he ends up drawing 3 cards instead of 2. With only 2 cards he has a 16% chance to find the card he needs, with 3 cards he has a 23% chance. This "fix" gained him 7% chance to find the card he needs. This, also, only happens a few times per game. Did we suddenly find the great balancer that makes Bunker on par with everyone else? Well, if that 7% did it, then Bunker isn't on a different tier. Did this "fix" the problem based on perception and playstyle? Absolutely.

You want to give Bunker a new ability to make him play differently? Great. You want to say that this now "fixes" Bunker's "problems" significantly enough to put him on par with others? I say prove it. You want to show me an abilitiy that is outright better than what Bunker has, and now you want to say he is more effective? I say prove it. Show me what was the actual problem was and how this solution signifcantly fixes it. Will this fix change the preceived problem based on playstyle? Yes, but that is all it does, and that is all we can talk about.

Cleary being civil isn't part of this discussion, so I won't continue it.

Bunker's only real problem is the cost of mode cards.

It is also what makes him unique.

As constructed Bunker is a useful hero, but not a top damage dealer, because at some point he chooses to enter turret, and suts down building up unless he got Ammo Drop into play first.

With all his cards in play Bunker is amazing, but it is really hard for him to ever pull that off.

He can not be a solid damage dealer all game and then burst late game.  He is not as quick to get going as the early damage dealing heroes like Ra or Haka, but he doesn't build up as well as AZ or Chrono through to late game.

Bunker is versatile, that is his strength, and the modes show that, you pick a way to play and go with it until you are ready to change that up.

The "Fix" of speeding him up isn't a fix, it is a boost.  Bunker isn't broken.  He isn't Iron Man, he's in a big clunky lowest bid contractor suit that can be amazing if it works right and has time to get going.  Most of the time Bunker isn't the star of the F5, but he is valuable, just not as valuable as many other heroes most of the time.

That's how I came up with my house rule boost to the modes, it drastically speeds up Bunker's mechanics and most of the time knocks him up a tier or two in effectiveness, closer to on par with the rest of the F5, and more reliable than AZ.

If you want a new Bunker power there are many ways to go, one of my favorite we've tried out recently:

Cover Fire

Power:  Reduce damage dealt by villain targets by 1 until the start of your next turn.

It's a Leadership style power that makes him really good (up with Legacy good)  It works thematically and adds something to his deck, alternate powers should change the hero to make them play differently, not to fix their deck to make it more powerful.  Not all heroes are equal.  They all have their roles to play.

Keep in mind, folks: We all have different opinions, and we need to respect those opinions. If we don't agree, that's fine, just accept that we don't agree.

PePe, if you don't agree, say so. Saying someone else's points are "bullshit" is not acceptable. Feel free to disagree, but do it civily.

I'm gonna walk right into a bear trap here...but...

Has anyone tried using Decomishioned Hardware as a Deck+Trash search instead of just a Trash search? 

I haven't, but speaking with the authority vested in me as a layperson who completely failed statistics class, letting Bunker search his deck seems a bit much, given how many options he has for putting cards in his hand.

Pydro, how do you recover with Bunker? Is it in your guide? My brother just got back from Afghanistan and has been interested in playing him. We just got an apartment along with my girlfriend, and Sentinels has been a great way to spend time together. Recovery with Bunker is always something I have trouble with, and I don't want his interest to dwindle with the destruction-heavy villains. Any advice, or should I just RTFM your guide? XD

Decomissioned Hardware is your best recovery card. It won't get you all your stuff back or Ammo Drop, but it can get you back in the game quickly. I think it's one of the only trash retrieval cards that puts things into play instead of your hand or deck.

I have agreed with this forum topic for a while now, and have become distressed at how infrequently Bunker is being played by our group for the reasons put forward by the OP - the restrictions put on Bunker for him to get the benefit of his Modes aren't much fun.  So, after reading all of the suggestions and feedback, I've decided to make a couple of changes which seem to be working well for us:

1) The general consensus here seems to be that giving the player the option to take the Mode card back into their hand at the beginning of Bunker's turn is better, and I agree.  When I used to have to destroy the card instead, I felt like I'd better get the most out of it first so I'd sit there in a Mode for multiple turns, which usually meant multiple turns not drawing or playing cards, which isn't much fun.  Being able to put the card back into my hand makes me feel like I haven't lost anything when I switch out of a Mode, so I'm more likely to go into a Mode in the first place.

2) The other thing which bugged me about two of the three Modes (Turret's fine) was that you wouldn't actually started getting the full benefits of the play until the turn after you'd played the Mode.  For example, with Recharge Mode, you can draw an additional card on your turn, meaning you get to draw two cards the turn you play the Mode, but the following turn you get to draw three cards because you won't have played a card or used a power.  That always made me feel like I needed to stay in the Mode at least two turns to get the most out of the card, all the while sitting there not playing cards or using powers.  Boring.  Similarly with Upgrade Mode, you get to play an additional card, but on the turn you lay out the Mode card, one of your two card plays consists of the Mode itself so you won't get the full benefit until the following turn.

So, I added the kicker that when Recharge Mode enters play, you immediately draw a card, and when Upgrade Mode enters play you immediately play a card.  This way, the full benefit of the card kicks in immediately, and I don't feel like I need to stay stuck in a Mode doing nothing for turns at a time.

Other than being able to return Turret Mode to your hand at the start of your turn, I made no other changes to Turret Mode.  That one gives a solid benefit the turn you play it.  I've always found it hard to give up the pew pew of Turret Mode so I tended to get stuck in Turret Mode for entire games at a time if I had enough good guns out on the table already, but now that I can put it back into my hand, I'm more likely to switch out then back in as the situation demands, which feels more fun to me.

Here's the funnest part of the Mode changes (for me)... custom cards!  They're the width of two regular cards so they fit across a couple of columns of your cards-in-play, making the Mode you're in really stand out.  The way I use them is whenever I play a Mode card, I pull the appropriate double-width Mode card from the box then slip the Mode card I just played from my hand under it and place them both in my play area.  When I leave the Mode for whatever reason, I put the double-width Mode card back in the box and take the actual card hidden beneath it and put it in the Trash.  Works smoothly.

The image on each is kind of lo-res, but they look good enough to me for now.  At some point I'll bug Christopher for the full-res images and update them.

Quality work as always Spiff!

I like it.

It functions pretty close to what I've been doing, which is when you return a mode card to your hand you can play a mode card, you don't get the full benefit the first time you enter a mode (if it is recharge or upgrade) but you always get the full benefit when changing modes.

Quick question: With Upgrade Mode, does that mean you get to play three cards the turn it comes into play? (We've always played that, when you play Upgrade Mode, you're still in your play phase so you get another play.)

Yes, when you play the standard Upgrade Mode you're still in your play phase, so you get to lay down another card on that first turn.  But here's the tradeoff on that first turn:

1) Either don't play Upgrade Mode, get to use a power, and play a card you actually want.

2) Or do play Upgrade Mode, don't get to use powers, and then play a card you actually want.

So, on that first turn, Upgrade Mode kind of sucks, and you're really only doing it in anticipation of the following turn when you'll get to play two cards that aren't Upgrade Mode. In my version, I lessen the pain by letting you play two non-Upgrade Mode cards on that first turn.  You still have the no-powers penalty, so it feels fair to me, though others are free to disagree.

Ah - got it!