Hey all, just got done with a VERY fun game of Eternal Haka, Ra, Fixer, and Wraith vs. The Matriarch in Rook City (a slow win with lots of DR and lots of deck control), and a few mechanics questions came up.
1) If the Mask is the first card to be played, would its entering play trigger its own text? We didn't encounter it, but the idea came up, and I wanted to clarify before I run into it. I would say no, as the text wouldn't become active until the card is in play (i.e. after it has entered), but I'm not as good with the details of the rules as many of you.
2) Some Smoke Bombs/Driving Mantis shenanigans. First scenario: Wraith hit Matriarch with Stun Bolts, the Private Eye is out from the environment; the PI card says the boss does H melee damage to him or the lowest health... Stun Bolts reduces that 4 melee to 3, targets the lowest, and Smoke Bombs redirects to Fixer down to 2, and Fixer redirects back to the boss for 3, correct? I think Driving Mantis's redirect would remove the -1 from Smoke Bombs but not the -1 from Stun Bolts. Second scenario: Haka uses Taiaha to hit Matriarch for 3 and himself (the lowest) for 3... the hit to himself Smoke Bombs to Fixer down to 2, Fixer redirects back to Matriarch with the same logic as the first scenario. Third scenario: this one didn't happen, but it almost did. Ra plays the card that ups his damage by 2 but forces him to deal himself 4 psychic damage (imbued fire is not out); if he's the lowest and Fixer is highest and Fixer has Pipe Wrench out, the 4 gets Smoke Bombed to Fixer down to 3 and then gets Pipe Wrenched down to 2, and he can then redirect it to the boss at the original 4, correct?
Luckily, we had enough overkill at the end that if we did do it wrong, the lower redirect damage wouldn't have caused Matriarch to have another turn.
Smoke bombs is limited to a villain card dealing the damage so Haka and Ra would not be allowed to redirect.
Otherwise all the effects seem to work, so if 4 damage is smoke bombed to a pipe wrench fixer I'd say yes, you punch the villain for 4
1) I don't think we've ever gotten an official ruling on this, but I'm inclined to say that it will not trigger.
2) As chaosmancer said, Smoke bombs won't work on damage from Haka or Ra, but it will work on your first example since the damage is coming from the villain card. I would keep the reduction from smoke bombs though, even when it gets redirected again. I think smoke bombs still applies because the damage was still redirected by smoke bombs. It just got redirected a second time as well.
I would disagree with your last point Dypaca, only because it says "damage redirected this way", once it is no longer being redirected by smoke bombs I feel the damage is supposed to increase. But, I hold no claim to rules arbitration.
Yeah, this is one thing I was unsure about, since the game has kind of funky redirection mechanics. Smoke bombs state pretty explicitly to reduce by 1, though redirection as a mechanic is like making the original attack simply hit someone else, so would Fixer undo the Smoke Bombs reduction? I could see it be argued either way.
Thanks both of you, I'd forgotten the detail that damage needs to come from villains for Smoke Bombs. Like I said, thankfully the difference is irrelevant to the way the game ended, but it's always good to have reminders.
Thankfully, the situation where the mask would activate itself is quite rare (after she's flipped, coming out of the deck), but it's good to clarify details.
I think Dypaca is right. The Smoke Bombs redirection still happened, even if the attack got redirected again.
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I think it's just ambiguous. Smoke Bombs' redirection causes Matriarch's attack to start over on Fixer at -1. Either Fixer's redirection starts the attack over at the point of Smoke Bombs' redirection (maintaining the -1) or it starts the attack over from the initial attack (bypassing the -1). From the ways I've read or heard the redirection mechanic described, I'd lean towards the latter, but it's nothing I'd argue passionately.
It has been stated that when redirection changes the target, all damage modifers need to be reassested almost as if the attack was being launched again. It is the mechanic that allows Fixer to take an initial attack of 3, reduce it to 2 with pipe wrench reduction, and redirect it back to the villain for the original amount of 3.
The way I see it, is that any attack that gets redirected with smokebombs gets the -1 modifier. However, if that attack gets redirected again by a different means (Fixer in this case), then all modifiers get reassesed all over. Smoke Bombs is not modifying the target dealing the damage like Stun Bolts does, but instead modifies the particular instance of damage it is happening to redirect. The modifier is 100% contingent on smoke bombs doing the redirection. If smoke bombs isnt the cause of the redirection, it would not benifit from its modifier. It says it works this way explicitly on the card. I would be surprised to hear it functions differently.
Order of Resolution:
1) Boss is Stun Bolted, reducing all damage she deals by 1
2) PI is in play. Boss targets PI for an initial attack of H (4) minus 1 from StunBolts.
3) Smoke Bombs redirects the above attack to Fixer for 3 minus 1 from SmokeBombs.
4) Boss is now trying to deal Fixer H(4)-1bolts-1smoke= 2 damage. Driving Mantis is in play and redirects to boss
5) Now the Boss is dealing herself H(4)-1bolts.
I think it's all just a question of whether you see the final damage as something which has been redirected twice, or you see the last redirection as erasing the previous. Personally I still see Smoke Bombs as part of the process of handing the damage off to the villain, so I would still apply the -1.
It's probably not a big gameplay change either way, since Smoke Bombs is the only card which attaches additional effects to the redirection.
The way I see it, if the Smoke Bombs hadn't redirected the damage to Mister Fixer, then Driving Mantis would not be able to redirect the damage. Thus, even though Smoke Bombs did not determine the final target, it still redirected damage, thus it's modifier still gets applied. The reason those other modifiers are added or removed are because the target is no longer the target, and the other target doesn't have modifiers the original target has (or does have modifiers the original target doesn't). However, the Smoke Bombs modifier is not part of the target (it doesn't say reduce damage dealt to the hero target with the highest HP by 1), it's a modifier for any damage which has been redirected by Smoke Bombs. And the damage had been redirected by Smoke Bombs; otherwise Mister Fixer would have been unable to further redirect it himself.
The idea of completely reassessing all modifiers from scratch as if the attack had been originally with the new target is not necessarily the rule, but rather the easiest implementation of the rule. The actual rule says that these modifiers are constant and static so long as the source and target are involved. When a new target is chosen, any modifiers which modify the old target and do not modify the new target are removed, and any modifiers which modify the new target but not the old are added.
Do good, I? No! Evil anon I deliver, I maim nine more hero men in Miami, sanitary sword a-tuck, carol I. Lo! Rack, cut a drowsy rat in Aswan. I gas nine more hero men in Saginaw. Reviled I, Nona, live on. I do... o, God!
Yeah I see where you are coming from Dypaca.
Thematically I see my interpretation playing out as such:
Angry from taking a stun bolt to the face that knocks her mask off, BirdLady fires a weakend pychic blast at an innocent investigator. Wraith's Smoke Bombs obscure her vision, throwing her accuracy off. Her off target blast misses the investigator and heads in the direction of Mr. Fixer instead. Fixer takes full advantage of her mistake and is able to round house kick the energy ball directly back at her, Chuck Norris style. The result is that Birdlady took the full brunt of her own attack. Like a Pro Tenis match, Smoke Bombs provided Fixer with a poor serve that he was able to slam right back at her face.
If this is the case JayMann, could we set up a situation that loops to nullify. Lets say Fixer is the highest HP with Mantis/Wrench. Wraith is the lowest HP and has smoke bombs. Villain hits Wraith for 4 damage. Smoke Bombs takes that 4 down to 3 and redirects it to Fixer. Fixer reduced that from 3 to 2 with Wrench. Mantis now triggers and can redirect the 3 damage. He chooses Wraith. Now the Villain is AGAIN targeting Wraith, but for 3 damage (since the Smoke Bomb modifer evidently stays). Loop until damage is gone.
Now I dont know why Fixer would target Wraith isntead of a Villain target, but this situation would be correct then right?
Well, Mantis is only the first time.
Yes, Mantis is first time only, and, there was another case this can occur, with Smoke Bombs and Lead from the Front, and I believe people had said (nothing officially) that anything which redirects damage cannot redirect the same damage a second time, specifically to prevent the damage immunity loop. Another case was all heroes tied with Smoke Bombs leading to the same loop, but a different reason was given to prevent this (and to technically prevent a spin lock from occuring due to irreducible damage). Personally, I like the idea of a Smoke Bombs damage immunity loop, but most others don't seem to at all.
Do good, I? No! Evil anon I deliver, I maim nine more hero men in Miami, sanitary sword a-tuck, carol I. Lo! Rack, cut a drowsy rat in Aswan. I gas nine more hero men in Saginaw. Reviled I, Nona, live on. I do... o, God!
Would just making the -1 from smoke bombs only occur for that particular instance of redirection clear those possible immunity loops up as well as provide a simple explanation to OPs example?
The Bombs/Lead from Front loop, if the -1 did not persist like in my interpretation, there could still be a loop, but it would not end in infinite damage immunity, just a loop that doesnt resolve until you bring it out of its own revolving door. Allowing the -1 to stack is what causes these immunity loops.
This could alleviate the need for your house rule saying a card cant redirect the same damage more than once in a much cleaner and non house-ruley way.
I mean, since nothing is official yet, this seems like it could clear up a lot of different problems in one shot. Thoughts?
It's not my house rule, it was the consensus of all others. I personally was in favor of the damage immunity loop.
Do good, I? No! Evil anon I deliver, I maim nine more hero men in Miami, sanitary sword a-tuck, carol I. Lo! Rack, cut a drowsy rat in Aswan. I gas nine more hero men in Saginaw. Reviled I, Nona, live on. I do... o, God!
Might be a decent one to add to the pending rule questions thread?
"Does Wraith's Smoke Bombs only reduce the instance of damage it happens to redirect? Or would its modifier persist through subsequent (but different) means of redirections (ie. Driving Mantis or Amulet of Elder Gods)"
With a potential follow up:
"If Smoke Bomb's modifier does persist through subsequent redirections, can Smoke Bombs redirect the same attack multiple times, applying the modifier each time it passes through? Or would the modifier only apply once regardless of how many times an attack is directed through Smoke Bombs?"
Well we do have a ruling that with Wraith as the only active Hero the Smoke Bombs still activates: smoke-bombs-only-1-active-hero and it seems unlikely that Paul just forgot to mention that it does so continuously in an infinite loop.
Saying that the reduction of Smoke Bombs goes away when the damage is redirected again does avoid damage being reduced to zero, but then you still have infinite loops. Smoke Bombs, Enduring Intercession, Decoy Projection, Divine Sacrifice, and Alchemical Redirection all have non-optional redirection between the heroes, and several pairs of them can conflict with each other and create an infinite loop if you allow them to trigger more than once.
This type of logic helps me be sure of what the rulings _must_ be, but doesn't actually give us an official ruling. So, as satisfied as I am by this answer, I'd also be very happy to get an official ruling in order to end the uncertainty.
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
You sold me on only allowing something to redirect a specific instance of damage only once.
Still not sold on the modifier staying around, but I can see it going both ways. Not a game breaker either way for sure