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Oceans in Play and tokens

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Arcanist Lupus
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Oceans in Play and tokens

If Invaders or Dahan are moved into Oceans they instantly drown.  What about Beasts, Disease, and Wilds?  Obviously they won't be much use there, but they could have some value for powers like Strangling Firevine, which deals damage per Wilds in adjacent lands.

Also, what about the presence of other Spirits?  Normally they can't place presence in the Oceans because Oceans aren't treated as Coastal Wetlands during Growth.  But there are several powers that place Presence on the island, and those could target an Ocean.  Some of them, like Indomitable Claim, are about as useful as a Disease token in the Ocean, but Flow Like Water, Reach Like Air becomes fantastic if you can use it to drag towns and cities into the Ocean.


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tedv
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You can have other spirit tokens in Oceans. Beasts might make sense because it's theoretically possible that the shortest route between two lands for a beast is through the ocean. But yes, beasts can swim very well.

Other spirits cannot have presence in Ocean. But if Ocean is in the game *and* you have Indomnitable Claim, another spirit can claim the ocean and put presence there. However, even if another spirit gets presence in the ocean, they still can't push more presence in unless the power card specifically says they can ignore presence restrictions (which Flow Like Water, Reach Like Air does not).

dpt
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Added a FAQ.

EDIT: Ted, why do you say that Flow Like Water, Reach Like Air cannot be used to move presence into the Ocean? The Special Rule says that "Oceans on boards with your [i.e., Ocean Hungry's Grasp's] Presence are treated as Coastal Wetlands for Powers and Blight". That seems to apply here, and I don't see anything that would forbid it.

lynkfox
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I may be wrong, but I beleive he ment that spirits other than Ocean, who end up with presence in the Ocean (ie, through Indomnitable Claim) would not be bale to use Flow Like Water, Reach Like Air on those presence.


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dpt
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lynkfox wrote:

I may be wrong, but I beleive he ment that spirits other than Ocean, who end up with presence in the Ocean (ie, through Indomnitable Claim) would not be bale to use Flow Like Water, Reach Like Air on those presence.

I thought the response was addressing moving Presence in to the Ocean with the power, not moving it out of the Ocean. But either way, why is it not allowed?
tedv
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Suppose Oceans is in the game, as is Vital Strength of Earth. Someone plays Flow Like Water, Reach Like Air on Vital Strength. They cannot push their presence into an Ocean, even if Ocean's Hungry Grasp has presence there. Earth *could* place presence in that Ocean with Indomnitable Claim, but even if they already had presence in the ocean from Claim, they cannot push a second presence in using Flow Like Water, Reach Like Air. Indomnitable Claim doesn't make the land magically okay for all future presence you want to put in that land for the rest of the game. It just lets you break the rules for the one presence placed by Claim.

BlueHairedMeerkat
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No, it doesn't, but Oceans does. Its special power says that the oceans on boards that Oceans is on are treated as coastal Wetlands for powers and blight. Hence, an ocean with Oceans in is a legal target for any power, incuding ones that add or move presence.


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tedv
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Sure, but Oceans also specifies that "You but not other spirits may have presence in Oceans". That prevents any presence push effect from letting a non-Ocean spirit from pushing presence into an ocean (unless the power specifically says it overrides that restriction).

phantaskippy
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Is that from the official release?  Because I can't find that wording.

tedv
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Oh, I was remembering prototype text which has this for the special rule:

Ocean Home: You - but not other Spirits! - may put Presence in Ocean. You may not place or move Presence into inland lands.

The published version doesn't specify anything about restricting other spirits from placing presence in Ocean. Interesting. It lets spirits use the lands for "Powers" (card plays and innates), but not for other things (like events). Very interesting.

So it sounds like any power card that allows spirits to place or move presence DOES let them put in the oceans, but spirits can't place there via growth options since growth is not a power. I wonder if this is what Eric intended. This should also affect powers like Unrelenting Growth and Serpent's level 2 innate. We'll have to let him weigh in here.

Eric R
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With the special rule worded as it is, yes, Powers, should be able to add/move other Spirits' Presence into the ocean. That's pretty clear. (Though because it's a late rewording, it's also not a case I'd considered much, nor which came up in testing to my knowledge.)

Unlike most other things getting stuck in the ocean, other Spirits' Presence raises some weird follow-on questions... particularly if Ocean loses all Presence on that board. I'll think on those.

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I updated the FAQ entry to reflect Eric's answer.

Arcanist Lupus
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Related question: if there is blight in an ocean and Ocean's Hungry Grasp leaves the board, does the blight remain?

If no, is the blight destroyed or returned to the blight card?

If yes, will the blight contribute to an adjacent Land Thrashes in Furious Pain?


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Arcanist Lupus
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Has there been any progress on these questions?


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tedv
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The blight will stay in the ocean even if Ocean's Hungry Grasp totally abandons that board. I *think* it should not count towards The Land Thrashes, since you cannot treat the ocean as a coastal wetland for the purpose of powers anymore (and Land Thrashes specifically refers to blight in adjacent lands, not blight in lands and oceans).