The All New and All Different(ly dressed) Freedom Five!

yeah, I really like this idea. And hope Adam sees it. 

Welcome to the GtG forums.

This is how we roll.

I totally realized this. Showed it to a friend and ze realized it immediately.

Well, we will get alternates...

What I find really funny is that everybody seems to have a fixation on the "circles" that may be or not flesh revealing, not her décolleté ( neckline ?) - not expected from a combat suit. But Maïa seems to prefer wearing clothes that do not obfuscate her feminity. I find young Legacy's mini-skirt more problematic, I wouldn't wear one if I was a flying lady.

I am not sure I should give my opinion here. I hope Legacy will Lead From the Front for me.

I cringe everytime I hear people, good-meaning or not, say that an outfit is "appropriate" or not for a woman. Real or fictional. It looks too much like what I hear nearly everyday in our societies - and in societies less modern than ours. Only about women, by the way.

If she was shown in a sexy enticing pose like the ones the Hawkeye Intiative points at, I'd agree with you all. Same if she was in any way pictured as a weak-damsell-ready-to-fulfil-your-domination-wish. I can't bear these kind of representation in non-erotic works. But she is not. So, if she wears something a little sexy, I think that is because Adam and Christopher decided she liked to wear this kind of clothes and felt confortable with them. Believe it or not, the women in my entourage like Wraith's outfits a lot. They would not wear them in everyday life, but don't find them shocking. You should see my wife's collection of pin-ups and Frazetta paintings... From both of us, she is the one with sexy girls in enticing poses as her desktop. But maybe it's because we are from another society.

If a man dared to walk the streets with Haka or Mainstay's outfits - or even Guise's too-fit body suit - there would be lot of shocked whispers. But these rise no eyebrow in comics, while showing skin is NOT - for a fictional woman. To me, it feels like too many of us expect more "decency" from women than men in pictures.

I don't want to suggest that any of you is a "biggot" or anything like that. And I don't say that a better representation of women is not worth fighting for. But in places where said representation is bad, like advertisement, too many movies or music videos, main-line comics, and so on.

But in Sentinels ? It feels like nitpicking. We have a great list of remarkable heroins and vilainess, all with interesting complex personalities, all with a lot of power. Some wear more or less sexy outfits. Just like women do in real life. Even Visonary and Wraith's outfits are not far from what women wear at the gym to work out.

Now I'll put my chainmail malekini and wait for the backlash.

Critiquing the way a fictional nonexistent imaginary woman is presented by the artist is not the same as criticizing women for showing skin. Also, "There are women in the real world who dress that way" is also not a valid critique of the critique because again this is a fictional nonexistent imaginary woman who is being presented the way she is by the artist. Wraith can't have agency, and it's not reasonable to react as if her agency is being criticized. There's no agency there, just as there is no woman being critiqued here. Just a picture of an imaginary person and how that person is presented.

Beacon's miniskirt isn't a miniskirt.

Its a skort.

Also, the thing about the cleavage is that showing cleavage by itself isn't necessarily objectifying, but showing the entirety of one's hips to the point that you can tell that someone is going commando is not even in the same category.

Now I do think it's possible that Adam doesn't intend for Wraith's hips and arms to be interpreted as skin, but rather as a different color of cloth over those areas. I don't really know. I do know what it looks like and what it looks like is questionable.

To me, I've always pointed out to my peers how progressive Sentinels is in so many ways, as we have representations of LGBT characters and non-sexually objectified female characters. And I'm not saying that Wraith was intended to be objectified here, but the outfit just doesn't seem right for a character like Wraith. What purpose would omitting a part of a costume there serve? There's nothing tactical about hip holes--the only thing it will serve to do is make her colder when she is out fighting at night, like she normally is. They're just so strangely placed and don't seem to contribute anything except showing that she is not wearing underwear. 

Maybe they weren't intended to be objectifying, but they still contribute to the trope of female comic characters having parts of their body exposed for no practical reason, and that's an issue. If we criticize that kind of presentation elsewhere, shouldn't we feel obligated to criticize it here, on a forum specifically designated for us to discuss our enjoyment of a particular thing? Anyone who took the time to sign up for an account here obviously enjoys Sentinels very much, so this is exactly the place we should bring very specific discussions about individual details, and bring up criticisms and improvements we'd like to see in this thing we love.

They did that for the first iteration of the Sentinels, and I always thought it looked really cool. 

Sure, just like that one vegan friend who always launches into a sermon whenever he catches someone eating a burger. ;)

I don't think I catch your meaning. Can you explain the analogy you're making? Sorry.

He's saying that the critique here is extremely obnoxious and invasive.

Or at least, that's how I see a lot of people react to Vegan proselytizing.

My point is that to that vegan, not eating meat is the most important thing to them and they'll take every opportunity to stridently remind people of their strongly held belief.  But even though that guy's friends probably agree with them, they may get tired of the sermon the thousandth time.

Not that this is the thousandth time we've had the same discussion about perceived objectivization, sexualization, or inclusiveness on this forum.  I'm just talking about vegans... ;)

But this isn't the same discussion. This discussion is about a specific piece of art released yesterday. It no doubt resembles those other discussions, but it is reasonable to discuss it.

I didn't say it wasn't reasonable to discuss it.  I'm sure it feels very necessary to discuss it thoroughly.

Nah, it was just a strong implication given the example. But maybe I've been around more obnoxious vegans than you have.

Well, yeah, it feels necessary every time. Wouldn't it be weird if we raised an issue with something, then saw it happen again, and we just said "Oh, well, saying something last time didn't work, might as well give up"?

It's more like half the world is vegan, and keep getting told not to make a fuss and suck it up when servers in restaurants keep bringing them burgers when they ask for tofu.

Sure, and the next time someone finds something they think may be too objectivizing/sexualizing/non-inclusive, that will feel like it needs to be exhaustively discussed as well.  Just know that your friends here all agree.  Eating meat is bad.

I don't see why discussing it is a problem.

Greatly appreciate the conversation and there have been some great comments / contributions! At this point, it seems like most folks have hit their points on Wraith's new outfit and we're now cycling back and discussing the discussion, which can tend to get dangerous. Not saying to stop -- just want to make sure everyone keeps their heads and respects everyone else's views.

Thanks for being such a great community, folks!

If you look at Rook City Wraith you see her skin tone in similar lighting.

I think this image is a problem of her skin tone being too pale in the picture.

If they are cutout then that really is just an incredibly horrible outfit, but I don't think that is the case, it just looks like it because the picture isn't finished and the coloring is poor.

Thanks for your sage advice @Rabit. I think we will all just have to agree to disagree on wether a line was crossed or not by Adam's art. In many ways that is what art is about, pushing boundries and creating thought provoking discussions that test your views of the world. 

The only problem would be if deploying the same indignation everytime the same set of wires are tripped ended up causing friends who otherwise agree to become numb to the argument.  I know that's not an interesting opinion when it feels like there's a war that needs winning, so I'll just leave my vegan analogy here and smokebomb out.  cya. :)

Nah, art is about creating content that people will hopefully enjoy or at least appreciate. It doesn't have to push boundaries, and not every boundary should necessarily be pushed.

Tl;dr: Everything looks pretty cool despite how rushed Adam was to draw them. There are nitpicks to be made here and there, but aren't there always?

Legacy: I really like how this costume is designed. It keeps everything very true to the original design while changing just enough that it feels fresh. It also looks cool. Which is important. (The way he's holding his left hand looks really uncomfortable, though. Does superhuman durability exclude one from hand cramps?)

Bunker: Bunker also looks pretty dang cool, despite his odd-looking legs. It's good to see that the Termi-Nation suit wasn't the final incarnation of Bunker in the card game, because that suit seemed somewhat unwieldly to take into combat with anybody but a ferrokinetic, even considering the general unwieldliness of Bunker suits (Oh no, it's Bunker! Good thing he can't fit through the double doors of the bank we're robbing.). It also seems somewhat thematic that he should have a lot of promos considering just how many Bunker suits we've seen.

Tachyon: The Tachyon promo is probably my least favorite, but that's not saying much because she still looks awesome. That said, is she not wearing shoes? I can believe in high-tech not-destroyed-despite-being-on-feet-travelling-at-mach-5 sneakers, but those boots seem like they would be super uncomfortable to run in without super speed. (Also, what is she running next to? It looks like a helicopter, but the pilot would have to be bad at his job, because the copter is literally skidding along the side of a building.)

The Wraith: My personal favorite. It looks wonderful and it's recognizable as the Wraith, yet it's something new and interesting. However, because I love it, I must nitpick it. That's how love works. *Clears throat*. As a general thing, heroes with secret identities should cover their hair somehow. I'm surprised The Wraith's identity lasted a week when a simple DNA test on any hair she lost would show that Maia Montgomery was coincidentally on mars while the FV was fighting a giant robot there... That utility belt has about the same utility as a regular belt. It has literally no visible places in which to carry things on it. And if all of the pouches are on the back of the belt, Wraith's cape is going to get in the way absolutely every time she wants to get something out of it... Etcetera, etcetera. It looks awesome. Good work Adam! (It's interesting to hear that Wraith changes her outfit and kit often, when she's one of the more consistently portrayed heroes. RC Wraith makes an out of character card appearance all of once.)

Absolute Zero: I suppose I'm probably just glad that a hero who is effective because of how modular his suit is has a suit that looks modular, but I like FV AZ. I don't love the helmet, but it works with what is trying to be acomplished. (As for why the Tactics suit is different, I'm pretty sure OblivAeon is going to destroy AZ's stuff. Absolutely every villain seems to love breaking AZ's stuff.) (That fence behind AZ is the least effective fence ever.) (I almost opened this with, "I'm a little on the fence about this art." Then I realized that wasn't funny without some form of context.) (Then I realized that just wasn't funny.)

Ra: Ra shaved, made a necklace out of a broken magical artifact, started wearing a really cool hat, and managed to find shoulderpads made of gold. I'm not even mad. That's incredible. His shoulders must be made of sterner stuff than mine.

Well, everything in this forum is discussed "exhaustively." There are entire threads devoted to discussing single phrases of text in the game, and 172 posts of people guessing what future cards might be (these also often get heated). And yes, this is important to many people, and no, the friends here don't all agree, which is why there is a discussion about it, which is good.

As long as people are civil, why such eagerness to shut down the conversation? Participation is not mandatory.

Edit: Also, the fact that something as silly as uncomfirmed "hip windows" on a single character can spark a genuine conversation about female representation, it's just a sign that this game and its artwork are held to a relatively high standard (for good reason), and that makes me happy. I think it's unfair and probably disingenuous to say that this is just a case of "wires being tripped," and an overreaction. You could make that argument for almost every arcane rules thread here, and I love those threads.

And the important question, of course, is really, How did Ra grow his nipple back?

With fire probably.

I agree with this. Seeing a thread where people are passionate about gender representation in SotM is really cool. It shows me that this is more than a card game with pretty pictures -- it has value to people, and it encourages constructive thoughts. That's leaps and bounds beyond what I imagined when I picked this up 4 years ago.

It probably involved all the hair he cut off. Those two things are transferrable.

1.) I'm thinking the "hip-holes" might be a product of rushing to get the update out and they might be more utility type pouches that I expect from the Wraith

2.) Her secret identity won't be big deal for too much longer timeline wise since she and the rest of the Freedom Five go public pre -tactics.

Am I the only one who's having a hard time connecting "hip windows" and "sexy"?  Please note that I am not, by any means, saying that we shouldn't have a conversation about sexualization/objectification of women in comics/media (and by extension this game), but it seems to me that if you purposefully wanted to make the Wraith look sexy by showing some skin, you'd choose something other than the hip-bone area.

As far as the question about underwear, Wraith probably isn't wearing any in that outfit anyway.  But that has nothing to do with the hip windows, and she's most likely not alone in that most of the heroes (male included) who wear tights probably aren't either.  While I'm not an expert, many forms of athletic tights are meant to be worn directly against the skin since that assists in wicking away moisture and therefore keeping you cool or warm as the case may need to be.  It gets a little more complicated when you get into multiple layers, and then when we get to superhero tights/armour probably even more so, but I'd imagine that a similar design principle is at play and the costumes are designed accordingly.  (After all, no one wants to be worried about uncomfortable chaffing while battling supervillians in another dimension.)

1.) So why wear the belt? But I digress. Keeping throwing knives and razor blades in your pockets seems dangerous.

2.) True. But she kept up the charade for something like 750 books in the Freedom Five comic alone. I think its fitting that one of her major costs in the RPG is "somebody realizes who you are" because she doesn't seem to be working very hard to hide it. =P

Well this is the genre where a guy got away with protecting his secret identity by wearing glasses, so per genre conventions, this is not far-fetched at all.

This is also true. At least Maia seems to have a tough time of it, with Setback punching walls on top of her and all that.

It's been said, but the biggest reason it doesn't work for me for it to be hip Windows is that it just isn't tactful in any way to wear that in combat. I think it's more likely to be fabric. Looking forward to asking Adam on Friday. XD 

I am on board with Wraith new Costume, The mask reminds me too much of spite but I am over it.And i love those shock kunkles and the side windows.

 As much as she is a techonology person she is also a martial artist. She has a Batman motiff so I doubt she will rearly use a power armor. Look at her arms and calves, I'll rock that outfit if I looked like that and hit the gym everyday. For me they are the heroes i like the most, people who use there own power to overcome problems.  I mean Woot for team HUman. Fixer, Expat(?), Wraith, Chrono.

I would Complain about her increase Boob size but have you seen Xtreme AA Chest, My good what being a hero does to your body.

I also tought Maia was Hispanic, and should/had have a slightly darker skin. Granted I am hispanic and I am as White as the come (good old Spaniard Conolinal Blood).

SilverLeaf and Belle I tip my hat to you gals. I do hope we can get more Not so extreme looking, guy, girl or what ever tempest is,heroes like Parse in every Media. 

I view Maia's mask as part of the story. She had to kill a monster, and as a result become a monster herself. Her mask is a symbol to herself that she crossed that line.

While I hail a team-set for the freedom five and I do find the costumes interesting, I am not fully seeing the transition to the costumes in tactics (design or color). AZ's head is confusing (could be design against villains), while Bunkers legs look weird (off-ratio?) and the first thing I thought was that his left leg was shorter. Secreetly hoping that these are draft versions of the art.

Wraith's new look coolest of the lot, with or without white circles/hip windows.

AZ's my least favourite, Tachyon a close second. Something feels off about the proportions, and I am not a fan of the new head props. Also not a fan of AZ's title font - does not suit his demeanor?

Interesting that Ra is Setting Sun - good bookend to Horus Ra's power Sunrise.

And what does it mean to be Horus of 'Two Horizons' anyway?

It means he's the god of both the rising and setting sun!

From wikipedia :

Ra-Horakhty

In later Egyptian mythology, Ra-Horakhty was more of a title or manifestation than a composite deity. It translates as "Ra (who is) Horus of the Horizons". It was intended to link Horakhty (as a sunrise-oriented aspect of Horus) to Ra. It has been suggested that Ra-Horakhty simply refers to the sun's journey from horizon to horizon as Ra, or that it means to show Ra as a symbolic deity of hope and rebirth. (See earlier section: Ra and the sun).

Tachyon's new costume might not be much different, but there's not a ton you could add to a speedster's costume. Anything extraneous might get caught on something while she's running.

Not that it precludes her from having any Hispanic heritage but the Wraith is Jewish from my understanding.   I also don't believe I've seen any drawings, flavor text, or bio information that would lead me to think she is Hispanic.

Somebody asked earlier what Tachyon is running next to; seems like a bullet train to me.

I honestly have to say that Wraith is my least favorite of the bunch - because of the Spite mask! I just can't see her having enough sympathy for that guy, or remorse over his demise, to actually adopt a part of him into her public character.

I was not left with an impression of Spite from seeing the mask for the new outfit.   It fits in with the idea that she trying to hide her identity further and doesn't have as menacing a look to me as Spite's mask does. 

I agree. I didn't notice it was very spite like till someone mentioned on here. It's much softer looking. However, it is an interesting choice to make it so close of a resemblance. Perhaps it wasn't intentional? I could see trying to come up with a fresh look, and having explored so many options that are so continuous with her character/super hero type, and seeing this as a much needed freshness for her character in the end.