yes - i have it in there to remove any that i miss during the calcuations. I still go through and look through them to remove them manually, b ut i also make sure the calcuations remove them
Out of curiosity for those of us playing with PnP promos can our statistic still count if we are using the original Hero's incapacitated side instead of the new one.
Yet to receive the new hero cards. So been playing with the front side of the Hero only.
that would effectively double the amount of information :P, so its unlikely that I will.
Its /possible/ mind you, and relatively straightforward (i would literally only have to copy and paste the two pages that collate the data and add a 'is advanced' tag to the search functions) but there is no way for me to do so in a mass format, meaning id litterally have to go through each Hero/Villian combination and Environment/hero Environment/Villain combination and add the tag, then double the fields in the Report
and since the only way I know of at the moment to get the info into the report is Manually (anything else I can think of slows down the Entry form so bad that it starts to time out on people) that would also double the information i have to input each month. its already a 2-3 hour process for me to manually input the data, (and thats streamlined as best i can - i have a rather good 10key pad speed, and ive made things in order that it is very easy to go from data point to data point)
So while that information would be nice, until I find a way that is easier for me to input the data, or to do so automatically without destroying the speed at which the form loads and accepts data, it wont be likely.
that would effectively double the amount of information :P, so its unlikely that I will.Its /possible/ mind you, and relatively straightforward (i would literally only have to copy and paste the two pages that collate the data and add a 'is advanced' tag to the search functions) but there is no way for me to do so in a mass format, meaning id litterally have to go through each Hero/Villian combination and Environment/hero Environment/Villain combination and add the tag, then double the fields in the Reportand since the only way I know of at the moment to get the info into the report is Manually (anything else I can think of slows down the Entry form so bad that it starts to time out on people) that would also double the information i have to input each month. its already a 2-3 hour process for me to manually input the data, (and thats streamlined as best i can - i have a rather good 10key pad speed, and ive made things in order that it is very easy to go from data point to data point) So while that information would be nice, until I find a way that is easier for me to input the data, or to do so automatically without destroying the speed at which the form loads and accepts data, it wont be likely.
No prob. Just wondering if that information can be effortlessly fished out.
I made this quick page that can look up all the games that a given username has entered, and their games played with said info (of Villain Hero or Environment) and win percentage.
Its all still locked right now, as i fiddle about with the bugs, but i may unlock that page for people to mess around with on their own time.
thanks for the appreciation. I just wanted to see if i had actually beaten La Capitan, and this was the easiest way to search - well i did just one first, then realized it be cool to do it for all my games... then realized others would want too... then realized it be a pain if i had to change it and bring it up for people...
lol.
so yes, if you don't read the sticky in the main forum, the personal stat looking up is open to anyone now. I will probably expand it a bit to show Advanced games, and average difficulty entered, rounds entered, ect. When im not feeling like the arse end of nowhere...
You know, there are two kinds of things statistics can be used for in science, to determine correlation between events and to determine causality. What we're doing here is determining correlation. We know that Legacy is involved in the majority of wins, but we don't know if Legacy causes or is even a major contributing factor to the wins. To determine that, we'd need to run experiments. We'd need to run a number of games using the same heroes/villains/environments and then run the same games with one hero swapped out and observe the results. Where are all the science students out there yearning to set up hundreds of controlled experiments so that we can actually say to ourselves, "this isn't just related to that somehow, this CAUSED that"?
Seems to me that you would have an additional problem: the randomization of the cards. You'd either need to run each game several times before you ever switch out or set up a villain who will take a long time (thereby increasing the chance that everyone would run through at least half of their deck).
I think what we're dealing g with here (and I could be wrong I stuck at math) is the law of large nimbers. that even with all the random factors involved with playing a game of sotm, eventually its all going to average out and we'll get some sort of information that is palpable to understand. that is with enough games, yes it will become evident that having legacy in your party is more likely to win you the game in general.
Is having Legacy in your game more likely to win you the game, or do people who have played the game longer and are therefore more experienced, more likely to choose Legacy for their games, winning because of their experience, not because of Legacy? Correlative data like we have can't answer that question, but a designed experiment could.
It's the same with the Advanced mode wins -- a surprisingly high percentage of those games are wins, but that's most likely because only people who are very experienced even play Advanced mode. If you designed an experiment that took a randomly selected group of players (so, a mix of experience levels) and had half play Normal mode and half play Advanced, I think the data would show a drastically reduced win percentage for Advanced mode. But without the designed experiment to remove the factor of experience from the equation, you can never be sure.
Of course, if I cared that much, I'd design and run the experiments myself... ;)
I still think it comes down to the Law of Large Numbers Spiff - even with what your saying, i understand, but given a signifigantly large enough of data points, it will all average out in the end. This is a very important law of statistics, from what (little) i understand. Over enough data things like player experience, heroes paired with, and other factors wont matter because there is enough data that the 'random ness' finally results in an average.
of course were talking 1000's of datapoints per entry and were barely in the 100-200 range for most of them, far less than that for many, so its a long point before where get there, and while were working, your points are still extremely valid in dealing with these numbers
Spiff is talking about systematic errors. Statistical errors are saved by large numbers, but in a academic study you always need to consider systematic errors. Now with large numbers you can at least estimate our bias.
For example, one would think that experience would improve play skill. If all the players inputing data were more expierenced than their win percentage should be higher than the win percentage of new players.
You could attempt to measure this bias using the data in a variety of ways. One way is to look at how an average inputees win% increases on a month by month basis. If we spot a trend then we could modify the data by the inputees time inputing data.
In general there could be thousands of varieties of bias. Most will be really small, does win % drop on Friday do to drinking while playing for example?
There is one bias we will never be able to test: do people who input data play differently then people who don't.
To test this we would need the field studies spiff suggests. Personally I think the effect of this is small. I play with my 7 year old, we often lose because of poor play. I included data from games with a lot of newbies, and games were I play solo. I think the variety of entries will balance most of the bias, but to be sure we would have to check.
Perhaps people doing demos could input their results? Perhaps with some sort of marker for that in the data?
Personally I think overall systematic errors will be small, but I could be wrong.
As an aside, it would be interesting to see how solo games compare with group games. How much more do you win when you're the only one you have to argue strategy with?
I was excited to see the # of players option as well. I think all but two of my games have been solo and I was wondering if that would make a difference
I feel bad about not entering all of the games I play at cons, but there is JUST NO WAY. It is SO MANY GAMES all back to back to back to back.
Well, just keep a pad of paper with you and write it down as soon as it happens! Yeah, you're right. That's possible, BUT at a con I am often busily moving into spiel about the company and products and thinking about who is going to sit down next and getting the cards and tokens organized and ready for the next group.
So, a proposal -- if you are going to be at a con and are not already busy doing other things, feel free to volunteer to be stats secretary -- going around amongst the tables and recording the results. This would be at more than just the booth, mind you, as there can easily be many, many games going on in free play areas (or in lobbies of hotels, etc.)
Another thought is that the >G staff could set up some sort of a kiosk in the booth where people could record their games, but a note of caution on this -- there usually is neither power nor wifi available at the booth, so they are relying on re-charging devices and (perhaps costly) cellular data.
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
How useful are stats from people playing at cons, though? Those games will be from people who barely know the game or the rules and who may not have even decided if they like the game or not. I don't think we're losing much by not including those games.
I made a mistake again, row 1846 the game against the Ennead in the Time Cataclysm is actaully supposed to be a win and not a loss.
Matchstickman wrote:
You added a new thing and I got confused :(4/3/2013 16:18:254/3/2013 19:19:48The second entry is correct, I accidentally submited it as 2 players, not 2 difficulty, please delete the first entry
Fixed
And Re: Cons - Yeah. I dont expect its going to be that easy. Im already working Origins, and id much more rather be teaching than secretariing :P ill write down a few for the sake of doing it but I doubt ill get all of them
Another thought is that the >G staff could set up some sort of a kiosk in the booth where people could record their games, but a note of caution on this -- there usually is neither power nor wifi available at the booth, so they are relying on re-charging devices and (perhaps costly) cellular data.
How about offering Sentinels Points for people to come to the booth and register their game by filling up a hardcopy of the form. After the con, some one can do the data entry. This avoids the computer/wifi problem. And encourages players to contribute to the stats.
Another thought is that the >G staff could set up some sort of a kiosk in the booth where people could record their games, but a note of caution on this -- there usually is neither power nor wifi available at the booth, so they are relying on re-charging devices and (perhaps costly) cellular data.
How about offering Sentinels Points for people to come to the booth and register their game by filling up a hardcopy of the form. After the con, some one can do the data entry. This avoids the computer/wifi problem. And encourages players to contribute to the stats.
Sentinels points -- would certainly be a motivator, but I wonder if it's unnecessary motivation -- getting to fill in the stats could be its own reward in a way, it's _fun_ to fill in the form.
Data entry -- uggh
As for con games not being typical, that may be much less so than it used to be, as a _LOT_ of the games played at the con are by experienced players (who have drawn in a newbie or two) who are looking to get more Sentinels Points. There are EIGHT new promo cards, so if you want them all, you need 800 Sentinels Points. Now, you might have gotten a few hundred from buying the core and/or expansions, but even getting all of those only gives you 500 Sentinels Points.
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
Given that its a fan based project, not official, i doubt we'll get any official support on the line, like SP or a form. Its a fun side project, but thats all it is - fan based, for fun.
And i -hate- data entry. hatehatehatehatehate. it takes me a few days to even get around to putting in the 2-3 games we play every tuesday, cause i just hate doing more than one at a time :p
pfft, data entry is easy brain-off stuff for me. give me the lists and i'll input them. might not all get done right away but it'll get done in a semi-timely manner.
Interestingly, I just looked up the Google Game games again and it appears that Argent Adept currently has a 100% win rate on there. Of course I don't think all games have been counted, plus putting them under Google Games is a fairly new thing and everything else prior to that was put under whom ever did the statistics. It is also 13 games aswell, so I think that's fairly good. Team Leader Tachyon is shortly behind with 11 wins and being at 100% as well. Redeemer Fanatic (7), Scholar (9), and Wraith (8) all also have 100% win rate as well.
One of the most shocking things about it is that Legacy has a 58% win rate, only 7 out of 12 games has he won. Kind of interesting since the only other hero under 70% win rate is Absolute Zero at 66%. Both Abz and Abz: EW are both tied at 6 victories in 9 games.
Hey Lynkfox...could you post a link to the form that lets you check your stats on the first post of the thread? as this gets longer its going to be harder to find your post
Russ (Rabit) and I are considering building a form (in something like MS Access) that could be used to collect game stats when the Internet is not easily available.
Can anyone provide a data dictionary for the game stats -- something that describes, for each collected value, what the valid values are? I am assuming that instead of, for instance, the name of each hero, a number is substituted when collected results.
Also, were we to collect such stats, what would be the easiest format to provide them in and who should we email them to (or otherwise get a file) to? Would a comma separated value (CSV) file work well?
AND, if anyone wants to build this for us, please do let us know. Ideally, we'd like to have something that we could try out as early as when Christopher is doing game days in Indiana starting Wed, Apr 17th.
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
Thats the raw data. If you have it print out in an Excell format in that exact manner, you can email me the excel file and ill just copy and paste it into the data there, all in one big block. And it will automatically be added to the stats, for calculation into next months report.
Only one little thing - its Tempest; Freedom (with a semi colon - its a mistake in the form and i just never fixed it cause it be a pain in my butt to adjust all the formulas now :P)
if you just copy paste from whats available so that it provides the exact same values, it will work properly.
The above thread at BGG made it realized that this statistics project hasn't been introduced at BGG (or had it?). Maybe we could post a thread there to collect more data? Or even add the link under "More Information"? Would that be appropriate?
Russ (Rabit) and I are considering building a form (in something like MS Access) that could be used to collect game stats when the Internet is not easily available.
When I first heard about the stats project, the thought struck me that putting everything into Access would make automating stats much easier, though I'm not sure how licensing and stuff works, and I don't think OpenOffice has a bona fide database product like Access. If I subscribe to Office 365, I may grab a local copy of Lynkfox's stats sheet and drop it into Access to play around.
Please feel free to! People say 'lynkfoxs' project but it is a community project. I just am the curator, and I just used what was easily available and free. If someone has access to something more powerful or reliable then by all means... This is why I started the Dropbox with the files to dl
I think this project might be better served as a web application. The idea of using a spreadsheet and a survey which automatically appends data to the spreadsheet is great for quickly getting an implementation set up without having to do the extra planning and development, but it appears that it's not flexible (such as inability to bulk import entries without manual involvement), and not very scalable (the fact it takes longer to post as the data gets larger seems to imply that the survey form locks the spreadsheet, downloads the entire spreadsheet, makes it's modifications, uploads the modified spreadsheet, then unlocks the spreadsheet, which would make it take longer and longer the larger the spreadsheet gets). Also, with a web application, many things which are manual now can be automatic and on demand (such as monthly reports, weekly reports, yearly reports, per hero reports, per villain reports, etc), and things which require people modifying the actual spreadsheet (such as looking up usernames) can be done without making such modifications. Also, creating services would also allow other programs more "direct" access to the data to allow things such as offline data collection with bulk posting and offline synchronization of data.
I would love to develop such a web application, and, in fact, have already done some planning in my head. I do not, however, have any current web hosting, and do not have the budget to purchase such web hosting. If someone who already has some website presence is willing to donate a directory or subdomain, that would be great. I prefer an ASP.NET + EF + SQL Server setup, but I'm not averse to something like PHP (though I haven't done any PHP work in some time) and any relational database system. I would also likely put all development files as a GitHub project so that others might help out. I would definately be looking for some designers to help with style and layout with CSS, as making websites look good isn't really a strong point of mine.
Do good, I? No! Evil anon I deliver, I maim nine more hero men in Miami, sanitary sword a-tuck, carol I. Lo! Rack, cut a drowsy rat in Aswan. I gas nine more hero men in Saginaw. Reviled I, Nona, live on. I do... o, God!
Well, there are two things that you have a bit wrong, Jay Man
1) I only lock the spreadsheet while I do the manual entry because that way i wont have some stats with 5000 games, some stats with 5001 games, some with 5002 games... ect you get? Now you might be right on how the Form itself works - i think its actually taking so long because i have a -ton- of calculations built into that document, which have to update everytime someone enters data - this is because of the manual entering ive been doing, but with #2 below, i can get rid of most of those. Even turned off, 150 calculations each taking half a second to go 'Nope! im off!' adds up, you know? but far faster than it having to update each actual caclcuation (most of whichi look across the entire /sheet/
2) Im working righte now on making it almost entirely automated in Excel - in that i just download the spreadsheet (takes about 20 seconds) open it up in proper excel not GDocs, wait for the calculations to update (Which it would much faster, cause there is no limit on Excel as there is online in Gdocs) and then upload the new Tracker. Take me probably 10 mins every month (or week!) once I get it all set up.
3) I am -alllllll for it-, however, the web application. As long as I still have control over the data and such, being the project curator. Its kinda my baby and I dont just want to give it up, ya know? :P But I too have no ability to host, or pay for a host. A kiddo really takes a chunk outta the paycheck.
oh, also the nice thing about the gdocs is that if I dissapear, then someone else can take it over with relative ease. If you're the sole developer on a web app, then unless we have another coder willing to volunteer their time, any problems or requests for new calculations/data entry ect would be on hold until such was found. To me thats not a big enough reason /not/ to go forward with a webapp deal, but im just puttin git out there :P
yes - i have it in there to remove any that i miss during the calcuations. I still go through and look through them to remove them manually, b ut i also make sure the calcuations remove them
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
Damnit, duplicate submission
3/17/2013 15:35:45 and 3/17/2013 15:36:17
Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all
Out of curiosity for those of us playing with PnP promos can our statistic still count if we are using the original Hero's incapacitated side instead of the new one.
Yet to receive the new hero cards. So been playing with the front side of the Hero only.
that's how they've been counted. I don't think it will be that big of a deal - at most its going to be 5-10 games
for reference tho the new incaped powers are on the wiki
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
Am idiot. 3/20/2013 17:03:24, should be a lose not a win
Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all
fixed (as are all others mentioned before this point)
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
Any chance of splitting Advnace and Normal modes results?
I ask because I play exclusively in Advance mode.
that would effectively double the amount of information :P, so its unlikely that I will.
Its /possible/ mind you, and relatively straightforward (i would literally only have to copy and paste the two pages that collate the data and add a 'is advanced' tag to the search functions) but there is no way for me to do so in a mass format, meaning id litterally have to go through each Hero/Villian combination and Environment/hero Environment/Villain combination and add the tag, then double the fields in the Report
and since the only way I know of at the moment to get the info into the report is Manually (anything else I can think of slows down the Entry form so bad that it starts to time out on people) that would also double the information i have to input each month. its already a 2-3 hour process for me to manually input the data, (and thats streamlined as best i can - i have a rather good 10key pad speed, and ive made things in order that it is very easy to go from data point to data point)
So while that information would be nice, until I find a way that is easier for me to input the data, or to do so automatically without destroying the speed at which the form loads and accepts data, it wont be likely.
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
Thanks for that.
And whatever you've done to it it runs a lot smoother now, thanks again.
Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all
No prob. Just wondering if that information can be effortlessly fished out.
Thanks for the hard work!
I got bored so i thought id try something funky.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqClP82b_XgZdFVreEhkOWJYcmlvcDNMbWppejh5aGc#gid=9
I made this quick page that can look up all the games that a given username has entered, and their games played with said info (of Villain Hero or Environment) and win percentage.
Its all still locked right now, as i fiddle about with the bugs, but i may unlock that page for people to mess around with on their own time.
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
Duplicate submission. 3/28/13, 11ish pm. Remove the first one; I didn't get my name onto it.
fixed
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
Anyone else excited for April 1st?
Big thank you to Lynkfox for making the start of each month interesting.
No Update on April 1st ... youll have to wait till next month. << >>
<< >>
Happy early april fools day ;)
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
This updated stat tracking is amazing. Thank you so much, sir!
Personal Stat Tracking is great.
Thanks for that update :)
thanks for the appreciation. I just wanted to see if i had actually beaten La Capitan, and this was the easiest way to search - well i did just one first, then realized it be cool to do it for all my games... then realized others would want too... then realized it be a pain if i had to change it and bring it up for people...
lol.
so yes, if you don't read the sticky in the main forum, the personal stat looking up is open to anyone now. I will probably expand it a bit to show Advanced games, and average difficulty entered, rounds entered, ect. When im not feeling like the arse end of nowhere...
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
I made a mistake again, row 1846 the game against the Ennead in the Time Cataclysm is actaully supposed to be a win and not a loss.
You know, there are two kinds of things statistics can be used for in science, to determine correlation between events and to determine causality. What we're doing here is determining correlation. We know that Legacy is involved in the majority of wins, but we don't know if Legacy causes or is even a major contributing factor to the wins. To determine that, we'd need to run experiments. We'd need to run a number of games using the same heroes/villains/environments and then run the same games with one hero swapped out and observe the results. Where are all the science students out there yearning to set up hundreds of controlled experiments so that we can actually say to ourselves, "this isn't just related to that somehow, this CAUSED that"?
Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Seems to me that you would have an additional problem: the randomization of the cards. You'd either need to run each game several times before you ever switch out or set up a villain who will take a long time (thereby increasing the chance that everyone would run through at least half of their deck).
I think what we're dealing g with here (and I could be wrong I stuck at math) is the law of large nimbers. that even with all the random factors involved with playing a game of sotm, eventually its all going to average out and we'll get some sort of information that is palpable to understand. that is with enough games, yes it will become evident that having legacy in your party is more likely to win you the game in general.
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
Is having Legacy in your game more likely to win you the game, or do people who have played the game longer and are therefore more experienced, more likely to choose Legacy for their games, winning because of their experience, not because of Legacy? Correlative data like we have can't answer that question, but a designed experiment could.
It's the same with the Advanced mode wins -- a surprisingly high percentage of those games are wins, but that's most likely because only people who are very experienced even play Advanced mode. If you designed an experiment that took a randomly selected group of players (so, a mix of experience levels) and had half play Normal mode and half play Advanced, I think the data would show a drastically reduced win percentage for Advanced mode. But without the designed experiment to remove the factor of experience from the equation, you can never be sure.
Of course, if I cared that much, I'd design and run the experiments myself... ;)
Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
I still think it comes down to the Law of Large Numbers Spiff - even with what your saying, i understand, but given a signifigantly large enough of data points, it will all average out in the end. This is a very important law of statistics, from what (little) i understand. Over enough data things like player experience, heroes paired with, and other factors wont matter because there is enough data that the 'random ness' finally results in an average.
of course were talking 1000's of datapoints per entry and were barely in the 100-200 range for most of them, far less than that for many, so its a long point before where get there, and while were working, your points are still extremely valid in dealing with these numbers
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
Spiff is talking about systematic errors. Statistical errors are saved by large numbers, but in a academic study you always need to consider systematic errors. Now with large numbers you can at least estimate our bias.
For example, one would think that experience would improve play skill. If all the players inputing data were more expierenced than their win percentage should be higher than the win percentage of new players.
You could attempt to measure this bias using the data in a variety of ways. One way is to look at how an average inputees win% increases on a month by month basis. If we spot a trend then we could modify the data by the inputees time inputing data.
In general there could be thousands of varieties of bias. Most will be really small, does win % drop on Friday do to drinking while playing for example?
There is one bias we will never be able to test: do people who input data play differently then people who don't.
To test this we would need the field studies spiff suggests. Personally I think the effect of this is small. I play with my 7 year old, we often lose because of poor play. I included data from games with a lot of newbies, and games were I play solo. I think the variety of entries will balance most of the bias, but to be sure we would have to check.
Perhaps people doing demos could input their results? Perhaps with some sort of marker for that in the data?
Personally I think overall systematic errors will be small, but I could be wrong.
As an aside, it would be interesting to see how solo games compare with group games. How much more do you win when you're the only one you have to argue strategy with?
Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
I added last night a # o players optional field
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
That's going to be exciting to start tracking, I wonder how many of my games make up the solo player market? Guess we'll be finding out soon enough!
I was excited to see the # of players option as well. I think all but two of my games have been solo and I was wondering if that would make a difference
You added a new thing and I got confused :(
4/3/2013 16:18:25
4/3/2013 19:19:48
The second entry is correct, I accidentally submited it as 2 players, not 2 difficulty, please delete the first entry
Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all
I feel bad about not entering all of the games I play at cons, but there is JUST NO WAY. It is SO MANY GAMES all back to back to back to back.
Well, just keep a pad of paper with you and write it down as soon as it happens! Yeah, you're right. That's possible, BUT at a con I am often busily moving into spiel about the company and products and thinking about who is going to sit down next and getting the cards and tokens organized and ready for the next group.
So, a proposal -- if you are going to be at a con and are not already busy doing other things, feel free to volunteer to be stats secretary -- going around amongst the tables and recording the results. This would be at more than just the booth, mind you, as there can easily be many, many games going on in free play areas (or in lobbies of hotels, etc.)
Another thought is that the >G staff could set up some sort of a kiosk in the booth where people could record their games, but a note of caution on this -- there usually is neither power nor wifi available at the booth, so they are relying on re-charging devices and (perhaps costly) cellular data.
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
How useful are stats from people playing at cons, though? Those games will be from people who barely know the game or the rules and who may not have even decided if they like the game or not. I don't think we're losing much by not including those games.
Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Fixed
And Re: Cons - Yeah. I dont expect its going to be that easy. Im already working Origins, and id much more rather be teaching than secretariing :P ill write down a few for the sake of doing it but I doubt ill get all of them
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
How about offering Sentinels Points for people to come to the booth and register their game by filling up a hardcopy of the form. After the con, some one can do the data entry. This avoids the computer/wifi problem. And encourages players to contribute to the stats.
Sentinels points -- would certainly be a motivator, but I wonder if it's unnecessary motivation -- getting to fill in the stats could be its own reward in a way, it's _fun_ to fill in the form.
Data entry -- uggh
As for con games not being typical, that may be much less so than it used to be, as a _LOT_ of the games played at the con are by experienced players (who have drawn in a newbie or two) who are looking to get more Sentinels Points. There are EIGHT new promo cards, so if you want them all, you need 800 Sentinels Points. Now, you might have gotten a few hundred from buying the core and/or expansions, but even getting all of those only gives you 500 Sentinels Points.
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
Get the intern to do them. Unity comes to mind. ;)
Given that its a fan based project, not official, i doubt we'll get any official support on the line, like SP or a form. Its a fun side project, but thats all it is - fan based, for fun.
And i -hate- data entry. hatehatehatehatehate. it takes me a few days to even get around to putting in the 2-3 games we play every tuesday, cause i just hate doing more than one at a time :p
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
pfft, data entry is easy brain-off stuff for me. give me the lists and i'll input them. might not all get done right away but it'll get done in a semi-timely manner.
Interestingly, I just looked up the Google Game games again and it appears that Argent Adept currently has a 100% win rate on there. Of course I don't think all games have been counted, plus putting them under Google Games is a fairly new thing and everything else prior to that was put under whom ever did the statistics. It is also 13 games aswell, so I think that's fairly good. Team Leader Tachyon is shortly behind with 11 wins and being at 100% as well. Redeemer Fanatic (7), Scholar (9), and Wraith (8) all also have 100% win rate as well.
One of the most shocking things about it is that Legacy has a 58% win rate, only 7 out of 12 games has he won. Kind of interesting since the only other hero under 70% win rate is Absolute Zero at 66%. Both Abz and Abz: EW are both tied at 6 victories in 9 games.
Hey Lynkfox...could you post a link to the form that lets you check your stats on the first post of the thread? as this gets longer its going to be harder to find your post
i cant actually do so, as the first post of this thread is not mine :P
However, i added it to the Sticky on the General Forums already.
and ive updated the Tracker (link in my sig) to have a link to the raw statistics doc as well
Alternatively, if you sign into google, and visit the page, then go to drive.google.com it will be linked there too.
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
Russ (Rabit) and I are considering building a form (in something like MS Access) that could be used to collect game stats when the Internet is not easily available.
Can anyone provide a data dictionary for the game stats -- something that describes, for each collected value, what the valid values are? I am assuming that instead of, for instance, the name of each hero, a number is substituted when collected results.
Also, were we to collect such stats, what would be the easiest format to provide them in and who should we email them to (or otherwise get a file) to? Would a comma separated value (CSV) file work well?
AND, if anyone wants to build this for us, please do let us know. Ideally, we'd like to have something that we could try out as early as when Christopher is doing game days in Indiana starting Wed, Apr 17th.
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqClP82b_XgZdFVreEhkOWJYcmlvcDNMbWppejh5aGc#gid=0
Thats the raw data. If you have it print out in an Excell format in that exact manner, you can email me the excel file and ill just copy and paste it into the data there, all in one big block. And it will automatically be added to the stats, for calculation into next months report.
Only one little thing - its Tempest; Freedom (with a semi colon - its a mistake in the form and i just never fixed it cause it be a pain in my butt to adjust all the formulas now :P)
if you just copy paste from whats available so that it provides the exact same values, it will work properly.
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/958015/environment-dificulty
The above thread at BGG made it realized that this statistics project hasn't been introduced at BGG (or had it?). Maybe we could post a thread there to collect more data? Or even add the link under "More Information"? Would that be appropriate?
I submitted a thread to bgg but I don't think it ever got posted. If someone wants to do so again feel free to!
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
When I first heard about the stats project, the thought struck me that putting everything into Access would make automating stats much easier, though I'm not sure how licensing and stuff works, and I don't think OpenOffice has a bona fide database product like Access. If I subscribe to Office 365, I may grab a local copy of Lynkfox's stats sheet and drop it into Access to play around.
Please feel free to! People say 'lynkfoxs' project but it is a community project. I just am the curator, and I just used what was easily available and free. If someone has access to something more powerful or reliable then by all means... This is why I started the Dropbox with the files to dl
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
I've created a new thread in BGG. http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/960297/the-best-heroes-a-statistical-community-effort
Hopefully this will bring more data to the project and reach that threshold for unbiased stats.
As a side note, will you help to thumb that thread on BGG so that it's more visible to new visitors there?
Thanks!
I think this project might be better served as a web application. The idea of using a spreadsheet and a survey which automatically appends data to the spreadsheet is great for quickly getting an implementation set up without having to do the extra planning and development, but it appears that it's not flexible (such as inability to bulk import entries without manual involvement), and not very scalable (the fact it takes longer to post as the data gets larger seems to imply that the survey form locks the spreadsheet, downloads the entire spreadsheet, makes it's modifications, uploads the modified spreadsheet, then unlocks the spreadsheet, which would make it take longer and longer the larger the spreadsheet gets). Also, with a web application, many things which are manual now can be automatic and on demand (such as monthly reports, weekly reports, yearly reports, per hero reports, per villain reports, etc), and things which require people modifying the actual spreadsheet (such as looking up usernames) can be done without making such modifications. Also, creating services would also allow other programs more "direct" access to the data to allow things such as offline data collection with bulk posting and offline synchronization of data.
I would love to develop such a web application, and, in fact, have already done some planning in my head. I do not, however, have any current web hosting, and do not have the budget to purchase such web hosting. If someone who already has some website presence is willing to donate a directory or subdomain, that would be great. I prefer an ASP.NET + EF + SQL Server setup, but I'm not averse to something like PHP (though I haven't done any PHP work in some time) and any relational database system. I would also likely put all development files as a GitHub project so that others might help out. I would definately be looking for some designers to help with style and layout with CSS, as making websites look good isn't really a strong point of mine.
Do good, I? No! Evil anon I deliver, I maim nine more hero men in Miami, sanitary sword a-tuck, carol I. Lo! Rack, cut a drowsy rat in Aswan. I gas nine more hero men in Saginaw. Reviled I, Nona, live on. I do... o, God!
Well, there are two things that you have a bit wrong, Jay Man
1) I only lock the spreadsheet while I do the manual entry because that way i wont have some stats with 5000 games, some stats with 5001 games, some with 5002 games... ect you get? Now you might be right on how the Form itself works - i think its actually taking so long because i have a -ton- of calculations built into that document, which have to update everytime someone enters data - this is because of the manual entering ive been doing, but with #2 below, i can get rid of most of those. Even turned off, 150 calculations each taking half a second to go 'Nope! im off!' adds up, you know? but far faster than it having to update each actual caclcuation (most of whichi look across the entire /sheet/
2) Im working righte now on making it almost entirely automated in Excel - in that i just download the spreadsheet (takes about 20 seconds) open it up in proper excel not GDocs, wait for the calculations to update (Which it would much faster, cause there is no limit on Excel as there is online in Gdocs) and then upload the new Tracker. Take me probably 10 mins every month (or week!) once I get it all set up.
3) I am -alllllll for it-, however, the web application. As long as I still have control over the data and such, being the project curator. Its kinda my baby and I dont just want to give it up, ya know? :P But I too have no ability to host, or pay for a host. A kiddo really takes a chunk outta the paycheck.
oh, also the nice thing about the gdocs is that if I dissapear, then someone else can take it over with relative ease. If you're the sole developer on a web app, then unless we have another coder willing to volunteer their time, any problems or requests for new calculations/data entry ect would be on hold until such was found. To me thats not a big enough reason /not/ to go forward with a webapp deal, but im just puttin git out there :P
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
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