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Removed hero change value of H?

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arenson9
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Removed hero change value of H?

If a hero is removed from play (for instance, because of Final Wasteland), is the value of H reduced?


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Ronway
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No, the value remains the same.

Ironic Fist
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Is there a reason for that, Ronway? The rule book explicitly says that it equals the number of heroes in the current game, regardless of whether they're active or incapacitated -  but it doesn't say anything about it being a fixed value (and the user of the word "current" seems to be there to indicate fluidity, at least in my reading of it). It also explicitly says that it's for game balance, so if a hero was removed entirely then you're losing both their possible active and incap influence so the balance is 'off' if you don't remove 1 from the H value.

Ronway
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Because the game designer said so? That's the best i've got.

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From Fireside chats thread https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/clarifications-and-decisions-fr...

Quote:

If a hero is removed from the game by Unforgiving Wasteland, the value of "H" does not change.
 


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Ironic Fist
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Okay, was just wondering as it seemed so counterintuitive. Thanks for the reply.

Ameena
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If I remember rightly, heroes don't have to be removed by Final Wasteland anyway, as they have a conflicting "when this card would be destroyed" clause in that they are usually incapped instead of being destroyed, meaning two things are trying to happen simultaneously (flip the card or remove it from the game) and therefore the players can choose which takes effect first, meaning the other doesn't get to happen at all :).


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Foote
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Ameena wrote:

If I remember rightly, heroes don't have to be removed by Final Wasteland anyway, as they have a conflicting "when this card would be destroyed" clause in that they are usually incapped instead of being destroyed, meaning two things are trying to happen simultaneously (flip the card or remove it from the game) and therefore the players can choose which takes effect first, meaning the other doesn't get to happen at all :).

I find this to be very much against the spirit of the card. I know you are technically correct here, Im not arguing that. It had to be that way for the digital version. But if you get crushed by Final Wasteland and you choose to just incap yourself instead of leaving the game like you really should, I would frown on it.

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Weeell, heroes are uber and stuff, aren't they? That's what makes them heroes ;). So all the little lesser minions and stuff get perma-killed by the gribbly monsters, but the heroes survive to fight another day and get rescued by their friends and stuff ;).


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Ironic Fist
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It was "Gone Without A Trace" from Madame Mittermeier's that was catching me out - I lost two heroes to it in one game, reduced H to 2 seemed fairer given that they were back in the box. Good to have an official ruling on it though!

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We considered it, but it can break the game to have H <= 2.


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Rabit
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Foote wrote:

I find this to be very much against the spirit of the card. I know you are technically correct here, Im not arguing that. It had to be that way for the digital version. But if you get crushed by Final Wasteland and you choose to just incap yourself instead of leaving the game like you really should, I would frown on it.

 

I've always looked at (and described) being incapacitated as the other heroes doing things in the incap'd hero's honor or to avenge their loss, so I don't see it as being against the spirit of the card, myself, from a thematic perspective. Thematically, it's still about the other heroes doing things. Agree it's against the mechanical intention of the card, but thematically it works for me. 


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Oh I really like that interpretation Rabit. From now on that's how I'll think about incaps... never really felt right to me before on a thematic level.

Ironic
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This intention seems to vary a little.  Like, with Visionary, I think it's self-evident that the reason why Base Visionary's Incap is so destructive whilst Dark Visionary's isn't is that each one is taking control on the other's flip side.  Likewise, Huge Sky-Scraper is pretty clearly still tanking hits when she turns back into a target - I don't think that's meant to be the heroes just trying harder to have something appear between them and their foes.

 

On the other hand, another hero taking up one of ExPat's guns is just as clearly on the opposite side of things, and the classic draw/power/play/destroy an Ongoing stuff which show up constantly are really neutral in theme and could go either way.  So the flavor is pretty malleable in many cases.

 

But I'd say that stuff like Mittermier's having art and flavor explicitly about how a hero has just eerily vanished point towards one choice over the other, both mechanically and lore-wise.  Obviously, to each their own.


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I took Huge Sky-Scraper's thing as the other heroes taking cover behind her body and therefore being un-targetable.

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Yeah, I figured her unconscious body was forming an obstacle that people kept tripping over/accidentally shooting or whatever ;).


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