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Proletariat's Overwhelm

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Bharryn
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Proletariat's Overwhelm

Must all Proletarians act when he takes an Overwhelm action?

This came up during our league games today.  Proletariat made a People's Hammer attack using Overwhelm.  My target went down before all of the Proletariats had acted.  One of the two remaining Proletariats was adjacent to his teammate Beacon.  The other was adjacent to another clone.  Would these two Proletariats be required to act?

phantaskippy
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I believe you would have to make attacks..  It says each, and doesn't make it optional.  Be careful when you overwhelm.

Also, it is important to note that melee attacks can only be made on adjacent targets, so no attacking the darkness to avoid hitting an ally.

Also while they are the same character, proletariats are seperate targets, so they are not immune to attacks by other proletariat targets.

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So all Proletariats MUST use that action? Can you only use it when they all CAN legally make use the action you select? e.g. one of them is hanging back and not adjacent to any character can you still use overwhelm to attack?

I disagree with your phantaskippy, I think the option to use the action is there but not a neccessity.


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phantaskippy wrote:

I believe you would have to make attacks..  It says each, and doesn't make it optional.  Be careful when you overwhelm.Also, it is important to note that melee attacks can only be made on adjacent targets, so no attacking the darkness to avoid hitting an ally.Also while they are the same character, proletariats are seperate targets, so they are not immune to attacks by other proletariat targets.

 

You're saying that one Proletariat target attacking another Proletariat target can damage Proletariat? I could see that being true, but don't think it's obvious that it is. If there's been an official ruling and you can point it out, I'd appreciate it.


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phantaskippy
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Each target is immune to its own attack.  That is the rule.  Each proletariat is a seperate target.

Also, otherwise Hammersweep wouldn't need the designation of immunity.

As for overwhelm you can choose the action, select the attack, if there is no target you wouldn't attack, but there is nothing in the language of the card to say it is optional.

Unless they rule differently that is how I would assume it works.

lutherbellhendricksv
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Attacks are made by targets. Targets are immune to their own Attacks (unless specified otherwise).

 

If you use overwhelm, each proletariat has to take the chosen action if possible. As usual, you do as much as you can, so if there's a proletariat that can't attack, it doesn't.

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So, since Prole is a single character but separate targets, he can (accidentally or intentionally) whack himself with People's Hammer, potentially dealing himself damage and pushing a clone.

Now here's the corollary question. If you have Shared Burden out, can you whack a clone with Overwhem, pop a clone with Shared Burden, then have the new clone attack as part of the Overwhelm action?


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arenson9
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metlarcturus wrote:

So, since Prole is a single character but separate targets, he can (accidentally or intentionally) whack himself with People's Hammer, potentially dealing himself damage and pushing a clone.

Now here's the corollary question. If you have Shared Burden out, can you whack a clone with Overwhem, pop a clone with Shared Burden, then have the new clone attack as part of the Overwhelm action?

 

"no they don’t. the newly spawned proletariats weren’t around when “overwhelm” was activated so they don’t get to benefit from it." -- from Spiff's FAQ


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lutherbellhendricksv wrote:

Attacks are made by targets. Targets are immune to their own Attacks (unless specified otherwise).

Luther, apologies, but I don't think you've cleared this up. Can one Proletariat target damage another Proletariat target? I think you are saying that they cannot, but Metlarcturus seems to have reached the opposite conclusion.


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No, he's saying any given Proletariat cannot hurt itself bur can hurt other Proletariats as they are one character but individual targets. Legacy can't punch himself in the face but Proletariat A can punch Proletariat B (but not Proletariat A) even though they're both Proletariat. Unless, of course, I've misunderstood him.


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phantaskippy
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You got it right pwatson.

arenson9
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pwatson, phantaskippy -- I appreciate your interpretation, I just don't think that what Luther wrote clearly says that.


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phantaskippy wrote:

Each target is immune to its own attack.  That is the rule.  Each proletariat is a seperate target.Also, otherwise Hammersweep wouldn't need the designation of immunity.As for overwhelm you can choose the action, select the attack, if there is no target you wouldn't attack, but there is nothing in the language of the card to say it is optional.Unless they rule differently that is how I would assume it works.

 

I'm not sure that this answer is correct. In the linked thread https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/proletariats-push-6384, Paul wrote:

 

Paul wrote:

Official Rule Time!

1) Push is not optional, and must be the number specified in the ability; i.e., "Push 3" must always Push the target 3 hexes, not 1 or 2. However, as Humble-Knight mentioned, you can make any Push beyond 1 end on the original space if you move people the right way.

2) Push is separate from damage. If Proletariat attacks a target and deals no damage, that target is still Pushed.

3) Characters are immune to the effects of their attacks. This includes damage, which is the most common case, as well as effects like Push. TL;DR - Proletariat cannot Push Proletariat.

 

While the rule book uses the word target, ltem 3 in this offical ruling uses the word character.  So I'm not sure that Proletariat can damage one his clones.  I agree that this is counter-intuitive to the specific rule listed on hammer sweep... why have a special rule if it is not necessary?  Neverheless, I'd love to get some official clarification on this one.

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Christopher and I just had a big discussion about this wherein we concluded that our previous ruling (#3 cited above) was overzealous and incorrect. Here are the correct...

Official Rulings!

1) Targets are immune to the effects of their attacks. In the special case of Proletariat, a given Proletariat is immune to its own attacks, but other Proletariats are not. This means that Proletariat CAN damage Proletariat, and also that Proletariat CAN Push Proletariat.

2) All Proletariats MUST act (if possible) when taking the Overwhelm action. This means that a given Proletariat MUST attack if the Overwhelm action is used on an attack, even if that attack would hit an ally or another Proletariat.


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My argument on this would be thematic in nature, each Proletariat should be aware of what the others are doing since they are psychicly linked and should still be immune to attacks by other Proletriats.   If a different allied character is nearby then yes they could get attacked by Proletariat if they are a valid target.  


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Donner
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Some of the powers do say Proletariat is immune to them.


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arenson9
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Thanks, Paul.


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If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel

metlarcturus
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In Soviet Union, hammer swing you.


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Bharryn
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Thanks Paul!  I'll adjust my Proletariat strategy accordingly.

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You guys should have known what the ruling would be based on the Proletariat Meta-Rule: every ruling about Proletariat is always disadvantageous to Proletariat.

So we knew from the beginning that a) Proletariat MUST take every overwhelm action he can, and b) Proletariat CAN damage himself with those actions, based on the Meta-Rule.

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That's what he gets for picking a fight with Triangle Man.


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