Instead of changing chard wordings, the ruling can very simply say that 'Also' means that it is part of the same instance of damage. So Jackhandle would do its damage to all targets, and at the same time hit Setback. Its still one original source of multi targeted damage, and does not trigger anything new. No need for errata. Just a clarification that also means that its part of the same instance of damage - this instance of damage being a group of little ones, but they are not triggering a loop. Think of it this way. the word 'Also' is a tie to the damage. It will metaspace change Jackhandle to read 'Whenever Mr Fixer would deal damage to a target, he deals that much damage to all non-hero targets and may deal Setback 2 damage for each one per the rules on Friendly Fire' Thats the intent obviously, and how I read it. Otherwise Jackhandle loops itself if you think about it the other way. Because it reads 'Whenever Mr Fixer would deal damage' - so he just did damage to 12 minions. Well thats whenever, so he hits them all 12 more times. Oh look thats 12 more instances of 12 more times so .... yeah.
Hey Lynkfox, I really like the way you presented this argument. I totally agree with you on what the intent for the card is. This is the least messy way to think about it, even if it does get a little meta. This is the way I will play it from here on out.
Dont trust the man with the beard. Even if at some point he doesn't have a beard. ;)
...so don't trust Ra?
Corporeal reincarnations of ancient gods with only one nipple are not to be trusted.
Definitely not.
I offer you as evidence the fact that my boyfriend is currently rocking some Breaking Bad style facial hair (not at all inspired by it, but since he actually looks a bit like that guy the resemblance is often commented on). It would be foolish to trust such a person.
Corporeal reincarnations of ancient gods with only one nipple are not to be trusted.
Definitely not.I offer you as evidence the fact that my boyfriend is currently rocking some Breaking Bad style facial hair (not at all inspired by it, but since he actually looks a bit like that guy the resemblance is often commented on). It would be foolish to trust such a person.
I don't think the Jackhandle, Friendly Fire combo is broken. If Fixer hits Setback, it's an extension of the attack he's already doing to the non villain targets. It's not a seperate attack, but just a modification of the one made on the villain targets. Setback doesn't take the full damage from attacks because he wasn't the main target, he was just sort of in the wrong place and ended up taking some damage. So I don't think Jack Handle and Friendly Fire should go in an infinite loop.
Good ideas are usually just bad ideas a stubborn person eventually fixed.
I don't think the Jackhandle, Friendly Fire combo is broken. If Fixer hits Setback, it's an extension of the attack he's already doing to the non villain targets. It's not a seperate attack, but just a modification of the one made on the villain targets. Setback doesn't take the full damage from attacks because he wasn't the main target, he was just sort of in the wrong place and ended up taking some damage. So I don't think Jack Handle and Friendly Fire should go in an infinite loop.
No. Dual Crowbars is two instances of damage. If you use Dual Crowbars and Jackhandle together everything gets hit twice.
I don't see how Friendly Fire would be any different.
Dual Crowbars is two seperate attacks hitting two different targets. Jackhandle hits all nonvillain targets, Setback gets too close to the action somehow and takes some of the damage as well. He's not getting hit with a seperate attack, it's the same attack. The damage may end up slightly different, but there isn't a seperate attack aimed solely at Setback.
Good ideas are usually just bad ideas a stubborn person eventually fixed.
Setback just becomes another "non-hero target" in the swing of things.
Playtesters went through Hell figuring out the wording on that blasted card. There were a few iterations that had something to that effect printed on it.
Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.
And then I came up with a wording that actually worked!
Until Mr. Fixer... fixed it.
McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."
Well Fixer tends to ba about pulling Rabbits out of his hat to try and make the best of what's in play. I guess this demonstrate that you can't underestimate the effect of putting an 85 year old blind guy that pulls off Mechanics-Fu shennanigans with a carefree happy go lucky guy that pulls off luck and bad luck shennanigans. I'm imagining Fixer creaming pretty much all the villains at once like Neo versus multiple agents smith in the matrix but at the same time tripping on setback but using martial arts to roll in just the right position to keep the jack handle going like it's wielded by a squirrel on speed all the while laughing at all those that keep saying he can't hold his own...
"Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type".
to:
"Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 of the same damage".
What do you guys think? Is it too ambigous?
Although it doesn't solve the Bot + WtM combo...
How 'bout:
""Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type. Damage dealt this way cannot be redirected or replaced."
A bit of a bigger change, but introducing the "cannot be replaced" wording solves all future Jack Handle problems. You just stick the wording on any card you don't want to be nullified by Jack Handle.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
This has all been crazy informative to read, but I do hope you realize that I now have the mental image of Setback bumbling into the path of one of Mr. Fixer's graceful martial arts attacks and then being beaten senseless by the cranky old man for interupting him when he was in a groove.
There is no official ruling on this particular situation.
There is official word that infinite loops are not a thing, so I would go with the "Forum Concensus" that setback gets added into the jack handle attack and friendly fire does not count as a seperate attack.
That would also mean you can't beat on Setback all day with dual crowbars (hitting two targets, then Setback+1, using that second target to re-trigger dual crowbars).
There is official word that infinite loops are not a thing ...
Really? What have I missed?
I could be wrong, but there were some situations that could create infinite loops with redirections, and the answer was that things like that only trigger once.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"
There is official word that infinite loops are not a thing ...
Really? What have I missed?
I could be wrong, but there were some situations that could create infinite loops with redirections, and the answer was that things like that only trigger once.
There was the issue of whether smoke bombs would infinitely reduce damage. As I recall, the answer was that while you can redirect infinitely, the reduction only happens once.
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
There was the issue of whether smoke bombs would infinitely reduce damage. As I recall, the answer was that while you can redirect infinitely, the reduction only happens once.
There is official word that infinite loops are not a thing ...
Really? What have I missed?
I could be wrong, but there were some situations that could create infinite loops with redirections, and the answer was that things like that only trigger once.
There was the issue of whether smoke bombs would infinitely reduce damage. As I recall, the answer was that while you can redirect infinitely, the reduction only happens once.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"
I think the video game is going to be - effectively - the enhanced edition cardset. No Jack Handles or Friendly Fire allowed.
Can I say somethin' about destiny? Screw destiny!.... 'Cause destiny is just another word for inevitable, and nothing's inevitable as long as you stand up, look it in the eye, and say, "You're evitable!" Fred Burkle
Well, I'm (obviously) new, and pretty late to the game, considering how much of a necro post this is, but, considering how there doesn't seem to have been a definitive resolution on this, I thought I'd add in my two cents.
Frankly, the answer is staring us right in the face, simply based on how Dual Crowbars and Jack Handle actually work.
Strictly written, there's nothing saying that Jack Handle and Dual Crowbars wouldn't trigger on themselves ad infinitum. Jack Handle would react to each instance of it applying damage, turning Mr. Fixer into a zen Koan in which he hits all non-heroes for an infinite amount of damage, and yet never so much as crushes a tumbleweed. Dual Crowbars, on the other hand, would turn into an infinitely escalating frenzy of Half-Life-style violence until there is only one man standing.
It's obvious to everyone (I hope) that that's not how they're supposed to work. What then? The answer, of course, is typed damage.
On the one hand, we have the elements, which is the normal definition of type. On the other, though, we have the "special" types, such as irreducible. Mr. Fixer works on that basis, then. Jack Handle and Crowbars trigger not when Mr. Fixer deal any damage; only when they deal non-Jack Handle/Crowbar damage. Something to the effect of:
When Mr. Fixer would deal non-Jack Handle damage to a target, he instead deals that amount and type of Jack Handle damage to all non-hero targets.
When Mr. Fixer deals non-Dual Crowbar damage to a target, he deals that amount and type of Dual Crowbar damage to another target.
With that simple, implicit, commonsense fix, Friendly Fire works exactly as intended, without any need for rewording:
Mr. Fixer hits a target while using Jack Handle. Jack handle repalces his initial hit with Jack Handle damage of the same amount and type to all non-hero targets. Setback can use friendly fire to also take 2 Jack Handle damage (for each hit, no less).
Mr. Fixer hits a non-hero target while using Dual Crowbars. Setback can use friendly fire to also take 2 damage. Mr. Fixer's hit against the initial target and his hit against setback each trigger Dual Crowbars. But Setback using friendly fire on either of the crowbar reactions won't trigger the crowbars again. A little shennaniganey, but a face full of crowbar earns a little shennanigans, in my book.
Dont trust the man with the beard. Even if at some point he doesn't have a beard. ;)
Just assume I'm always doing that.
Damn it, Ronway!
I'm glad someone got that...
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)
glad it helped. :)
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
...so don't trust Ra?
Corporeal reincarnations of ancient gods with only one nipple are not to be trusted.
Twitter: imprimis5. Follow away!
Definitely not.
I offer you as evidence the fact that my boyfriend is currently rocking some Breaking Bad style facial hair (not at all inspired by it, but since he actually looks a bit like that guy the resemblance is often commented on). It would be foolish to trust such a person.
Just assume I'm always doing that.
Damn it, Ronway!
Is he missing a nipple?
Twitter: imprimis5. Follow away!
I just asked him and he checked and say no, he seems to have the requisite three.
Just assume I'm always doing that.
Damn it, Ronway!
Does he have a golden gun to go with the third?
No. He says he does have a gun, and it's black.
Just assume I'm always doing that.
Damn it, Ronway!
Apparently, he has two.
Just assume I'm always doing that.
Damn it, Ronway!
No Comment.
Just checked out the legality of said guns. Apparently, he's okay.
Just assume I'm always doing that.
Damn it, Ronway!
I don't think the Jackhandle, Friendly Fire combo is broken. If Fixer hits Setback, it's an extension of the attack he's already doing to the non villain targets. It's not a seperate attack, but just a modification of the one made on the villain targets. Setback doesn't take the full damage from attacks because he wasn't the main target, he was just sort of in the wrong place and ended up taking some damage. So I don't think Jack Handle and Friendly Fire should go in an infinite loop.
Good ideas are usually just bad ideas a stubborn person eventually fixed.
No. Dual Crowbars is two instances of damage. If you use Dual Crowbars and Jackhandle together everything gets hit twice.
I don't see how Friendly Fire would be any different.
Dual Crowbars is two seperate attacks hitting two different targets. Jackhandle hits all nonvillain targets, Setback gets too close to the action somehow and takes some of the damage as well. He's not getting hit with a seperate attack, it's the same attack. The damage may end up slightly different, but there isn't a seperate attack aimed solely at Setback.
Good ideas are usually just bad ideas a stubborn person eventually fixed.
Setback just becomes another "non-hero target" in the swing of things.
Playtesters went through Hell figuring out the wording on that blasted card. There were a few iterations that had something to that effect printed on it.
Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.
I think that is the thematic intent
And then I came up with a wording that actually worked!
Until Mr. Fixer... fixed it.
McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."
McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector
Well Fixer tends to ba about pulling Rabbits out of his hat to try and make the best of what's in play. I guess this demonstrate that you can't underestimate the effect of putting an 85 year old blind guy that pulls off Mechanics-Fu shennanigans with a carefree happy go lucky guy that pulls off luck and bad luck shennanigans. I'm imagining Fixer creaming pretty much all the villains at once like Neo versus multiple agents smith in the matrix but at the same time tripping on setback but using martial arts to roll in just the right position to keep the jack handle going like it's wielded by a squirrel on speed all the while laughing at all those that keep saying he can't hold his own...
I've revamped my earlier errata attempts!
Change FF from:
"Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type".
to:
"Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 of the same damage".
What do you guys think? Is it too ambigous?
Although it doesn't solve the Bot + WtM combo...
How 'bout:
""Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type. Damage dealt this way cannot be redirected or replaced."
A bit of a bigger change, but introducing the "cannot be replaced" wording solves all future Jack Handle problems. You just stick the wording on any card you don't want to be nullified by Jack Handle.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
This has all been crazy informative to read, but I do hope you realize that I now have the mental image of Setback bumbling into the path of one of Mr. Fixer's graceful martial arts attacks and then being beaten senseless by the cranky old man for interupting him when he was in a groove.
"Stupid kid, you made me look bad!"
Aaaaaand Oblivion went off for two points of damage total. :(
I had this situation come up during a game. I browse through this thread, seems like there is no official ruling, or is there?
There is no official ruling on this particular situation.
There is official word that infinite loops are not a thing, so I would go with the "Forum Concensus" that setback gets added into the jack handle attack and friendly fire does not count as a seperate attack.
That would also mean you can't beat on Setback all day with dual crowbars (hitting two targets, then Setback+1, using that second target to re-trigger dual crowbars).
Really? What have I missed?
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
I could be wrong, but there were some situations that could create infinite loops with redirections, and the answer was that things like that only trigger once.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"
There was the issue of whether smoke bombs would infinitely reduce damage. As I recall, the answer was that while you can redirect infinitely, the reduction only happens once.
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
This is my understanding as well.
I was basing it on your opinion.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"
While humorous, my opinion then is out of date.
Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel
Curious to see how the logic on these 2 cards plays out in the video game. Will it cause an endless loop until you win the game?
I think the video game is going to be - effectively - the enhanced edition cardset. No Jack Handles or Friendly Fire allowed.
Can I say somethin' about destiny? Screw destiny!.... 'Cause destiny is just another word for inevitable, and nothing's inevitable as long as you stand up, look it in the eye, and say, "You're evitable!" Fred Burkle
Expansions will be released. So Jack Handle and Friendly Fire will eventually make it's way there.
Well, I'm (obviously) new, and pretty late to the game, considering how much of a necro post this is, but, considering how there doesn't seem to have been a definitive resolution on this, I thought I'd add in my two cents.
Frankly, the answer is staring us right in the face, simply based on how Dual Crowbars and Jack Handle actually work.
Strictly written, there's nothing saying that Jack Handle and Dual Crowbars wouldn't trigger on themselves ad infinitum. Jack Handle would react to each instance of it applying damage, turning Mr. Fixer into a zen Koan in which he hits all non-heroes for an infinite amount of damage, and yet never so much as crushes a tumbleweed. Dual Crowbars, on the other hand, would turn into an infinitely escalating frenzy of Half-Life-style violence until there is only one man standing.
It's obvious to everyone (I hope) that that's not how they're supposed to work. What then? The answer, of course, is typed damage.
On the one hand, we have the elements, which is the normal definition of type. On the other, though, we have the "special" types, such as irreducible. Mr. Fixer works on that basis, then. Jack Handle and Crowbars trigger not when Mr. Fixer deal any damage; only when they deal non-Jack Handle/Crowbar damage. Something to the effect of:
When Mr. Fixer would deal non-Jack Handle damage to a target, he instead deals that amount and type of Jack Handle damage to all non-hero targets.
When Mr. Fixer deals non-Dual Crowbar damage to a target, he deals that amount and type of Dual Crowbar damage to another target.
With that simple, implicit, commonsense fix, Friendly Fire works exactly as intended, without any need for rewording:
Mr. Fixer hits a target while using Jack Handle. Jack handle repalces his initial hit with Jack Handle damage of the same amount and type to all non-hero targets. Setback can use friendly fire to also take 2 Jack Handle damage (for each hit, no less).
Mr. Fixer hits a non-hero target while using Dual Crowbars. Setback can use friendly fire to also take 2 damage. Mr. Fixer's hit against the initial target and his hit against setback each trigger Dual Crowbars. But Setback using friendly fire on either of the crowbar reactions won't trigger the crowbars again. A little shennaniganey, but a face full of crowbar earns a little shennanigans, in my book.
Oh, crud. Why didn't anyone put this to Christopher in the AMA?
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