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Do target restrictions apply when repeating a power on an adjacent land?

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Trajector
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Do target restrictions apply when repeating a power on an adjacent land?

"The Land Thrashes in Furious Pain" targets lands with Blight. If you have certain elements, you may repeat the power "on an adjacent land." Is this ANY adjacent land, or just one with Blight?


dpt
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It is any adjacent land. The full rules are on p. 19. The relevant thing is the third bullet point:

If a Repeat specifies where to use it, obey those restrictions (instead of the usual Range and Target restrictions). Otherwise, you may choose any valid target by the usual rules, including the same target as the first use.

arenson9
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I am STILL agog over The Land Thrashes in Furious Pain. Got this unexpectedly, having not read through all the cards, and it was just ... SO ... DELICIOUS. Used it on a land with two blight, adjacent to three other lands with one blight to wipe out a city, a town, and two explorers, clearing a coastal space right before it would have ravaged AND built.

 

 


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arenson9 wrote:

I am STILL agog over The Land Thrashes in Furious Pain. Got this unexpectedly, having not read through all the cards, and it was just ... SO ... DELICIOUS. Used it on a land with two blight, adjacent to three other lands with one blight to wipe out a city, a town, and two explorers, clearing a coastal space right before it would have ravaged AND built.  

It's one of my favorites. I had one game as Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares with two adjacent lands with 3ish blight each (and a bunch in surrounding lands). One land had a couple cities and a whole mess of towns in it. So I used the power in the heavily populated land to "destroy" them all, generating a ton of fear and pushing all of the towns to the other blighted land, where I repeated it, generating all the fear again and pushing them into the ocean. It's a super-satisfying power for when things are going really badly in one area (and still pretty functional when things are only slightly bad).

Chaosmancer
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Oh yeah, wiped two seperate lands with the Land Thrashes, it is a brutally effective power.

phantaskippy
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Wait, so repeating a power will let Bringer "destroy" the same units more than once?  Because that is awesome if it works like that.  I went with no in a game we played where we repeated powers, would love to hear i was wrong.

Eric R
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Nope. Says it right there on the panel: "A single Power cannot destroy a given Invader more than once."

EDIT FOR LATER READERS: Nope, jumped to an incorrect conclusion. A Repeat is considered a separate effect from the original.

dpt
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Wait, hold on: I would have thought that a Repeated power counted as a different instance. If somebody plays Powerstorm to let me duplicate Pillar of Fire, surely I can destroy the same invader once the first time and once the second? In that case, the two uses can be separated by many other power effects, and it might be trick to track which Invaders were destroyed the first time around.

Eric R
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Hmm. For the case of The Land Thrashes, it seemed obvious to me that it was a single Power use - the Repeat effect is part of the original Power Card - but you're right, things like Powerstorm and Gift of Strength make it much more ambiguous.

It's a good question, and one that needs resolving. If a Repeated Power is "the same power" for Bringer purposes, that's good in some ways (can combine Damage) and bad in others (can't "kill" the same Invader more than once). If it's not, vice versa - you couldn't combine "damage" from the Repeat with the original in order to "kill" something, but you could "kill" the same Invader once per Repeat.

phantaskippy
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I would think that if another power can act between the original use and the repeat it would count as seperate powers.

Because then it isn't a continuation of the original event.

dpt
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phantaskippy wrote:
I would think that if another power can act between the original use and the repeat it would count as seperate powers.

Because then it isn't a continuation of the original event.

Definitely agree. It does raise the question: can another power act between the two lands that get hit by The Land Thrashes in Furious Pain?

Note that it is a 'Repeat'; for instance, the rules are clear that if you use Powerstorm on The Land Thrashes in Furious Pain (with the elements), you only get to hit three lands, not four, since the 'Repeat' on The Land Thrashes in Furious Pain gets skipped on the Powerstorm repitition.

In any case, I'll wait for a final ruling before adding it to the FAQ!

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dpt wrote:

t does raise the question: can another power act between the two lands that get hit by The Land Thrashes in Furious Pain?

Powers cannot interrupt other powers, so I'd say no.

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A similar, yet distict question:  Can you repeat a power (using Powerstorm or something similar) that you have already used?

 

From the perspective of targeting, when you repeat a power with Powerstorm you create a completely independant copy of it.  You could use Tsunami on one side of the island, and then use it again on the other side.  On the other hand, the repeat on Land Thrasher is tied to the original.  So Powerstorm repeats "feel" more like seperate instances, while Land Thrasher repeats feel more like an extension of the power.  That said, treating them differently with regards to Dreamer is a bad idea, as it makes the rules more complicated than they need to be.


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Eric R
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Arcanist Lupus wrote:

So Powerstorm repeats "feel" more like seperate instances, while Land Thrasher repeats feel more like an extension of the power.  That said, treating them differently with regards to Dreamer is a bad idea, as it makes the rules more complicated than they need to be.

Yup, that dichotomy is what was causing my internal dissonance. And yes, absolutely, treating them differently for Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares is a really bad idea. After some thought and discussion with Ted:

  • Repeating a Power is considered a new use of that Power Card - effectively, it's a copy of the original effects (except without further Repeats) that must be used as soon as it's granted. (Powerstorm and Gift of Strength both give a Spirit the one-turn, one-use ability to invoke a Repeat of a previously used Power Card, so their timing is flexible. But when a Power Card tells you "Repeat on an adjacent land", you have to resolve the Repeat immediately afterwards - you can't use other Powers between the original use and the Repeat.)
  • That "extra use" is considered a separate effect from the original. I think this is only relevant right now for (a) Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares, and (b) Victory/Defeat. (Say you're one Blight from loss, with a City in each of two lands, and Poisoned Land + Powerstorm in hand. If you Repeat Poisoned Land, you'll lose after the first one resolves, before you have a chance to Repeat and achieve a sacrifice victory.)

So the answer is: Yes, Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares can "destroy" the same Invaders a second time with the threshold effect of The Land Thrashes in Furious Pain.

Chaosmancer
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Okay, I want to make sure I'm following this conversation properly.

 

If playing Bringer of Dreams/Nightmares, and you target a land with Thrashes in Pain. You deal a bunch of fear and then move the targeted invaders to a different land. If you use the threshold to target that second land, you may not target the invaders you targeted the first time. However, if there were invaders in that land before you moved the first set, you could target them, essentially just pushing everything over 1 land.

 

 

We are uncertain if you could target the same invaders again if another spirits card allowed you to repeat the power you used, because we are uncertain if that counts as a new iteration of the power (perhaps if you had to pay the cost again, it is like playing the card a second time instead of repeating it?) or if that counts as the same repeat as the elemental threshold.

 

 

Am I good so far?

 

 

Edit: Ninja'd while I was doing laundry.

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tedv
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The easiest way to think about it is that "repeat" creates a completely new copy of the power that you apply once you finish doing the effect that made the repeat. So you do all of the phantom damage from Nightmare, which will turn into fear and/or pushing if you did enough (instead of actually damaging), then you repeat the power. The repeated power is just like you played Land Thrashes a second time. It's a "new" power, so it can also fake-destroy the invaders once more. Does that make sense?

phantaskippy
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Thanks Eric.  Can't wait to bust out the crazy terror.

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tedv wrote:

The easiest way to think about it is that "repeat" creates a completely new copy of the power that you apply once you finish doing the effect that made the repeat. So you do all of the phantom damage from Nightmare, which will turn into fear and/or pushing if you did enough (instead of actually damaging), then you repeat the power. The repeated power is just like you played Land Thrashes a second time. It's a "new" power, so it can also fake-destroy the invaders once more. Does that make sense?

 

And really, you end up pushing them to a different land, so some repeats aren't going to allow you to target them again anyways, if the new land does not end up qualifying as a target.

 

 

Hmmm,

 

What about Tsunami then?

 

Tsunami deals damage and then can target a second land if you meet the threshold. It is not a repeat, do we consider this damage to be simultaneous and therefore it is not an issue, because you will deal all the damage and then shift everything. Or do you resolve the targeted land, then resolve the threshold which will allow you to double target?

 

 

Also, Bringer playing Tsunami, shifting two or more lands worth of invaders, another player has Ocean and they all throw themselves into the seas and drown. That's an awesome combo

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Simultaneous or not is irrelevant in this case, because a single power cannot "kill" invaders more than once.  So even if you can double target, it won't do anything.

 

The only case I can think of where it would become relevant is if there were already invaders in the space that you did not want to kill (either because you didn't want to earn fear in order to save the next fear card when playing against Level 6 England or because you don't want to push the invaders), you could maybe target the already "killed" invaders as a way of protecting the already present ones.


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Eric R
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Yeah, Tsunami (and most other threshold effects) just add additional stuff to what that (single) use of the Power Card does. Perhaps in the target land, perhaps in other lands - there are a number which can have effects outside of the target land, like Vengeance of the Dead or The Trees and Stones Speak of War. No ambiguity there.

And that's how I'd originally also been thinking of the Repeat instructions... but after more careful consideration I think Repeats need to be considered a separate effect.

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We've got a power that came up on Thursday night's game - and I can't think of what it was right now - that added blight, then possibly dealt damage based on blight present if the elemental kickers were met. Is this something that would count the blight added by the power in calculating the damage?

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Yes.  Everything on a power happens sequentially, so you add the blight, and then when you check for blight the blight is there.

 

Was this Poisoned Land? 


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Eric R
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@jffdougan: Yes. You follow the instructions in order, and "Add a Blight" happens before "Per Blight, [damage and fear bonus]".

EDIT: Ninja'd. And FAQ Entry added.

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It might have been Poisoned Land. It wasn't my power, but the two answers here mean that we did play it properly.

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Ah, why not turn this into a question section for good old Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares.

 

Instruments of their own Destruction came up.

 

Bringer cannot deal damage, and it spells out that if they would cause Dahan to deal damage that damage is also not real. However, Instruments causes the Invaders to deal damage to themselves. This edge case isn't covered. Is this damage false damage as well, or since it is the invaders dealing the damage is it allowed by Dreaming of a thousand deaths?

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It is false damage as well, just like the case of Dahan dealing damage. (Space was limited, we couldn't cover all the edge cases explicitly.)

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This thread dealing with weird edge cases is awesome. This is one of my favorite things about games like Spirit Island and SotM :D


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dpt wrote:
It is false damage as well, just like the case of Dahan dealing damage. (Space was limited, we couldn't cover all the edge cases explicitly.)
I was starting to write this up as a FAQ entry, and realised I wasn't 100% sure of the full answer: suppose Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares somehow reaches that threshold effect on Instruments of their Own Ruin (Instead, if Invaders Ravage in target land, they damage Invaders in adjacent lands...) That's still phantom damage, right? Even though it's being caused by the Invaders ravaging?
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If it is, then does that mean that the ravage caused by Manifest Incarnation is also false damage?


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Eric R
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"suppose Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares somehow reaches that threshold effect on Instruments of their Own Ruin (Instead, if Invaders Ravage in target land, they damage Invaders in adjacent lands...) That's still phantom damage, right? Even though it's being caused by the Invaders ravaging?"

Sorry, missed this earlier. No - it's changing what the effects of an Invader action are, and that happens normally.

Similarly, if Bringer somehow ended up with Wildfire's damage boost Power Card, that'd work normally too - it's modifying other Spirits' damage, not doing any itself.

dpt
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OK! Added a FAQ. (But I didn't include that corner case with Flame's Fury...)

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Eric R wrote:

"suppose Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares somehow reaches that threshold effect on Instruments of their Own Ruin (Instead, if Invaders Ravage in target land, they damage Invaders in adjacent lands...) That's still phantom damage, right? Even though it's being caused by the Invaders ravaging?"

Sorry, missed this earlier. No - it's changing what the effects of an Invader action are, and that happens normally.

Similarly, if Bringer somehow ended up with Wildfire's damage boost Power Card, that'd work normally too - it's modifying other Spirits' damage, not doing any itself.

 

So, for absolute clarity

 

The first section of Instruments where the invaders deal damage based on strife is phantom damage

 

The second section where their ravage is modified acts normally

Eric R
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Yes.

Arcanist Lupus
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And the extra ravage caused by Manifest Incarnation works as normal.


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dpt
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Arcanist Lupus wrote:

And the extra ravage caused by Manifest Incarnation works as normal.

I believe that's correct. It's an extra Invader Action, as per the rules in the Branch & Claw rulebook, and can be prevented by A Year of Perfect Stillness, for instance.