So this got opened in a thread on BGG and I figured I'd see how others view this. So we have these incap rules for Requital Captain Cosmic:
Before removing your cards from the game, shuffle all constructs into a deck and put it under your character card. Whenever a construct is destroyed, Remove it from the game.
Then these are incap powers for him
- Move 1 construct or the top card under this card to a new play area.
- A construct deals 1 target 1 energy damage.
- Each construct regains 1 HP.
So the question posed over there was whether you could interact with this deck with things like Timeshift of Omnitron-X, Experiment from SST, or Turmoil of Dark Visonary.
Based on how the incap setup and the first incap power is worded it seems like only Captain Cosmic is the only one capable of interacting with the cards underneath him. Reason being that his first incap power specifies moving the top card under this card and not referencing playing a card from the deck and that also when these Contructs are destroyed they get removed from play instead of going back to the deck under his character card.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
The weird thing I see in the wording is, if you put only Constructs into that deck, why does the first power say what it does? Why would you just move the top card, when the wording says you can move any one Construct?
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Cards under his card aren't constructs. It lets you reassign a construct in play.
The constructs under CC form a deck, so I would assume that you could treat it like any other deck. But it might not count as a hero deck.
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It can't fully be treated like a deck otherwise you would be discarding his character card for affects like Gimmicky Character and Fumbling Fool since his incap card is on top of it.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
The character card isn't part of the deck. Although I admit that I don't know what you would do with a card you discarded.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
The deck you just made goes under the incap Captain Cosmic card so it would be part of it and thus outside of Captain Cosmic I don't think it can be interacted with.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Just like the cards under Savage Mana can't be interacted with?
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
I would be curious if End of Days or Apocolypse has an impact on it but beyond that I don't see much that should be able to interact with the cards under his incap side.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Could "No Executions" put a card back under that Construct deck?
I'd say no as there is no deck associated with him at this point as the "deck" is cards under another card and not really a deck.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
If it is treated as a deck that would work.
I doubt it will be treated as a deck, because they put it under Cosmic, making Cosmic the top card of the deck, which means he could be put into play or put on the bottom of the deck, both of those run counter to the idea of the card, so I doubt they would rule that way.
The 2 viable options are (and right now either is valid until we get the final ruling with the video game implementation)
1. It is not a deck, no deck related things can affect it.
2. It is a deck, but when you interact with the top card of the deck, you ignore the character card and the card under Cosmic's character card is treated as the top card of the deck.
I expect #1 to be the official ruling, but official rulings on these types of things aren't something Christopher likes to give, he likes to let people play it their way. Unfortunately that doesn't work with the video game, so a lot of things have to be officialized.
By his own incap rules, however it IS referred to as a deck. Timeshift should 100% work.
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You gotta know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
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Then what happens to his character card which is the top card of that deck?
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Is his character card the top card of the desk, or is it on top of (i.e. covering, but not a party of) his deck?
As Killswitch pointed out, his incap setup specifically refers to the constructs as forming a deck. That's fairly unambiguous to me.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
It's on top so if it's a treated as a normal deck why wouldn't his character card count as part of it?
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
If it is a normal deck why does the incap move the top card under him and not state play the top card?
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
The way I understand it, the character card is on top of a deck, not part of it. As to why it states "top card under this card," my guess is to dissolve confusion, similar to how Rise to Power/Taste of Immortality state to play the top card underneath the Shrine of the Ennead.
Steam Username: General Specific
You gotta know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to hold fast
And when to turn loose!
You also can't interact with cards under the Shrine of the Ennead without Rise to Power or Taste of Immortality.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
That's not what I was trying to point out. My point is that there is card text to instruct the players how to handle card interactions, unlike older cards that didn't have those interactions at the time.
Steam Username: General Specific
You gotta know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to hold fast
And when to turn loose!
The incap card is put on top and the cards underneath it. It isn't a deck anymore and are cards under another card. The only reason deck is listed in my mind is because we are taking cards from Captain Cosmic's deck and it is all cards in his hero deck. Outside of stuff like End of Days I don't see any other powers or card plays impacting it much like cards under the Shrine of the Ennead.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
The Ennead and The Shrine are not a Deck.
Cards under other cards usually have no text, or any other designators other than belonging to a particular hero/villain/environment. We know that the cards under Captain Cosmic's incap do not have the Construct keyword yet because they are refered to as "cards". I believe that once placed under Captain Cosmic they are no longer a deck, any more than cards under Savage Mana are a deck.
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As I've pointed out before, his incap text directly refers to these cards as a deck when it is newly formed after incapacitation. Also, no one is calling the Ennead/Shrine a deck, I'm not sure why this is still brought up.
Steam Username: General Specific
You gotta know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to hold fast
And when to turn loose!
I never said what was under Shrine of the Ennead was a deck or specified as a deck I'm just referencing it as an item that is similar.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
That's not true. Well, it's sort of true. Cards under other cards can be interacted with just fine. The only problem is that there are only a few cards that can interact with them, and End of Days and Into the Stratosphere don't do anything to indestructible character cards. But it's not the fact that they are under the shrine that prevents the interaction.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
Fair enough I'm just looking at a similar instance where cards are played from under another card. Now Captain Cosmic's cards are not listed as being indestructible so I foresee End of Days being pretty bad for this Incapped hero.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Well, End of Days won't be exactly good for him, but I'd say that the cards under him aren't in play (because they're a deck) so it won't get rid of any constructs he hasn't played yet.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
Cards under Savage Mana and La Capitan can be destroyed by End of Days. It is that situation is likely why cards under the Shrine of the Ennead are specified as indestructible. The only reason I think deck is specified is because it is complied from cards in a hero deck but once they go under him it' should be no different than what is under Savage Mana, La Capitan, or Self Destruct Sequence.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
No, because decks aren't in play. Otherwise End of Days would destroy all the decks, and everyone would have to reshuffle immediately.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
These are cards under another card not really a deck anymore once they go under his incap character card.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Why not? Why does puting them under another card make then no longer a deck?
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
Sounds like there's a set of views we probably can't reconcile without an official response.
Does that sound like it represents the situation/views?
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All the reasonable ones at least. I personally support the idea that all cards under character cards become character cards in a seperategame that happens in a parallel universe.
You can still call it a deck but I don't see anything from prior cases we have (of cards under other cards) or similar instances (like Shrine of the Ennead) that indicate it should behave like a hero, villain, or environment deck. Incap heroes don't have a deck and their cards are removed from the game. If it behaves like a hero deck then it should be suspectible to Fumbling Fool but then you have a question of whether you are discarding the hero card or the top card under Captain Cosmic. If it was the top card under Captain Cosmic then what do you do with this Contruct that now got discarded since there isn't a trash or deck it's associated with anymore?
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Yep.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
We will have agree to disagree until we ever see an official ruling as we are at a standstill on our viewpoints.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Agreed.
Personally, I'm planning to treat it as a pile of cards that aren't a deck or cards in play (#1), as that's the one that makes the most sense to me given the intention. I honestly think the use of the word "deck" in the intro of the incap abilities was not intended to mean it is actually a deck, but until we get an official decision, we'll just have to go with our individual approachs on it.
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Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)
The first time I read the text for that power, I got briefly confused and thought that shuffling them into "a deck" meant to pick one of the decks remaining in the game and shuffle all the Constructs into that. Which of course makes no sense with anything in that text after the word "deck" (or the subsequently-available incap abilities), which is why I got confused :D.
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Personally I agree with Rabit. I could be persuaded that 2 is correct, which would mean Experiment and the like could affect it but it does leave the question of how to handle discard effects. Which is why I think 1 is more likely.
I'm really not persuaded by 3 as it means Apocalypse or End of Days would mean Captain Cosmic would have no incap abilities at all to use which seems counter to the design philosophy of Sentinels regarding player elimination.
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I think if we judge by probable intent, #1 is by far the most likely.
Number 1 that Rabit listed is what I think is correct but I certainly wouldn't mind a ruling regarding number 3
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Either way we have some problems. Either for cards like "By Any Means" which would put a construct back in its deck, or for cards like Fumbling Fool which discard cards out of the deck.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
By Any Means doesn't return cards to their decks - that's No Executions. By Any Means is the damage buff.
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I have no idea how I typed that. Yes, I meant No Executions. I mix up By Any Means and Kill on Sight all the time, but this is a new one for me.
"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
I would assume that, if you stuck such on one of the constructs, it would have no effect. Just like how playing an ammo card with no guns for Expatriette sends the card straight into the trash, because its an invalid play.
Speaking of Expatriette...I assume the Constructs would remain Hero targets, as they came from a Hero...err, pile of cards...and she wouldn't shoot them all with her Hair-Trigger Reflexes.
They are still hero cards and targets as they still are cards from a hero deck.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Bwahahahaha!
...I mean, I agree, but it's hard to explain why without using that pesky "D" word this thread is about.
Very true it's just that all cards in this game come from some deck no matter what state they are in.
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
Also, if I recall correctly, Hairtrigger Reflexes has a MAY in it. You don't NEED to target them.
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