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Applied Numerology doesn't feel right - rules question

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Meemitone
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Applied Numerology doesn't feel right - rules question

Could someone quickly clear up something for me, does Applied Nerology's second effect expire (and if so, when) or does the power stay changed forever? The timing on spites power hit drug suggests the change is applied after the effect of the power and it doesn't state an end point.

Foote
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Applied Numerology doesn’t change the text of the power used for harpy. It only acts upon the text that’s there. the second time you activate Numerology the numerals in the power you used didn’t change, so it’s not permanent. 

Meemitone
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I'm no less confused, because what Foote says means (to me anyway) that Applied Numerology's second effect does nothing. So I'm going to outline my thoughts on it here:

(the text in question is "Whenever you use a power in The Harpy's play area, you may increase by 1 or reduce by 1 one of the numberals in the text of that power.")

  1. "Whenever you use a power" triggers normally appear to trigger after the effect of the power, for example Spite's "PL626 Compund Xi" which states "Whenever a hero uses a power, Spite deals that hero 2 Toxic damage..." and Benchmark's "Secondary Cannon" both work this way. Thusly, from experience, the effect is applied after the effect of whatever power you use (or so I believe anyway).
  2. If it only changed the numeral for the power use that triggered it, it would say "You may first increase or decrease" (in my opinion) and would state that the effect went away at the end of the power use in some way, probably through phrasing it like "You may treat one numeral in the power as being 1 higher or 1 lower than it's printed value for the duration of that power". Hence, I believe it applies a continuous effect (like Heartbreakers damage increases)
  3. If it does apply a continuous effect, like Heartbreaker, then how is the effect interrupted? In Heartbreakers case, removing him from play stops all the damage incresases as he'd re-enter as a new object. This implies that the increases are stored on him and disappear when he does. The question for Applied Numerology then is; Are the numeral changes stored on Applied Numerology (and thus end when it leaves play) or on the cards it changes (and thus ends when the modified card leaves play)

I feel like it shouldn't stack (for the purpose of easing the strain of carrying numbers around all game) but I can't be certain, so I seek a full clarification.

Powerhound_2000
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It’s not a permanent change. Hopefully this example of what you can do with her base power with it out helps explain:

1.  Deal 1 Target 2 Infernal Damage (unchanged as Applied Numerology doesn’t force you to alter the numbers)

2.  Deal 2 targets 2 Infernal Damage ( increased numeral for targets)

3.  Deal 1 target 3 Infernal Damage (increased damage for Infernal)


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Meemitone
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I feel like if it did that Powerhound it would be worded along the lines of "Whenever you would use a power in Harpy's play area, you may first increase by 1 or decrease by 1 one of the numerals in the text of that power for its duration.". As it is, it does not state that the increase or decrease afflicted on the numeral is undone at the end of the power's use nor does it state that the change is for this use of the power. Other cards that state "Whenever you use a power" apply their effects after the use of the power that triggers it rather than before, and that is the major problem I have. The power appears to modify numerals after you use the power, and not before.

Powerhound_2000
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This is how it worked in playtesting and how it works in the video game alpha testing. While I understand the wording issue this is the intent. You can see this was accounted for as well in the power wording for Ancient Tome and Swift Summoning.  


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
Dandolo
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Meemitone wrote:

I feel like if it did that Powerhound it would be worded along the lines of "Whenever you would use a power in Harpy's play area, you may first increase by 1 or decrease by 1 one of the numerals in the text of that power for its duration.". As it is, it does not state that the increase or decrease afflicted on the numeral is undone at the end of the power's use nor does it state that the change is for this use of the power. Other cards that state "Whenever you use a power" apply their effects after the use of the power that triggers it rather than before, and that is the major problem I have. The power appears to modify numerals after you use the power, and not before.


I get where you're coming from and perhaps the wording could have been better, but Powerhound's response is accurate.
speedyolrac
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Ohh OHh care to explain all the ways Guise messed this up?  
It is amazing how few times numbers show up in the game.


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MindWanderer
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I can't see how Guise could break it at all. He can copy all of Harpy's ongoings, but that doesn't let him do anything she can't do. Lemme See That doesn't move the equipment to his play area, so it doesn't apply. Nor does Completionist's main power. He could add a target or a point of damage to his vanilla power or Completionist's damage option, but that's fine.


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Dandolo
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MindWanderer wrote:

I can't see how Guise could break it at all. He can copy all of Harpy's ongoings, but that doesn't let him do anything she can't do. Lemme See That doesn't move the equipment to his play area, so it doesn't apply. Nor does Completionist's main power. He could add a target or a point of damage to his vanilla power or Completionist's damage option, but that's fine.


I think Speedy is referring to the "interesting" playtesting history of this card... let's just say there was more than one iteration on the wording and lots of lively debate on the effect.
... and then there was Guise proofing.
Powerhound_2000
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MindWanderer wrote:

I can't see how Guise could break it at all. He can copy all of Harpy's ongoings, but that doesn't let him do anything she can't do. Lemme See That doesn't move the equipment to his play area, so it doesn't apply. Nor does Completionist's main power. He could add a target or a point of damage to his vanilla power or Completionist's damage option, but that's fine.

Caspit’s Playgroind to take Applied Numerology and copy other Ongoings with Uh,Yeah,I’m That Guy!    

Its not going to be an easy thing to do but that opens up a lot of power options.  


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
Dandolo
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Powerhound_2000 wrote:

Caspit’s Playgroind to take Applied Numerology and copy other Ongoings with Uh,Yeah,I’m That Guy!    Its not going to be an easy thing to do but that opens up a lot of power options.  


Oh boy, that should be some interesting coding for Handelabra.
Foote
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Applied numerology applies it’s effects directly onto what’s physically printed on the cards. That’s why it’s not possible for the effect to stack and why it never required a clause to end the effect. 

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Foote wrote:

Applied numerology applies it’s effects directly onto what’s physically printed on the cards. That’s why it’s not possible for the effect to stack and why it never required a clause to end the effect. 

This directly contradicts what’s been said in the thread.

If it applied it’s affects to the text physically printed on the card then it would stack infinitely and make harpy beyond OP.

 

MindWanderer
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Vladimus wrote:

This directly contradicts what’s been said in the thread.
If it applied it’s affects to the text physically printed on the card then it would stack infinitely and make harpy beyond OP.
 

Why?  If the card says 1, Applied Numerology can make it 0 or 2.  Period.  It can't stack because it can only affect that single number and change it to one of the two possibilities, because 1 is what's printed on the card.  The only way it could stack is if it could change the number after it's been modified, so unless you take out a Sharpie and write a new number on there, that can't happen.

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