Last game with Expatriette was with DW Exp. I had Pride, Predjudice, and an Assault Rifle with one Aim in place, and played an Unload. Second Aim and fired all three guns. Was a glorious turn.
(Of course, she died start of the next villain turn, but it was a blast to play it!)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
If you're fighting a villain or in an environment with equipment destruction, chances of getting more than two guns in play for an unload aren't very high.
Good ideas are usually just bad ideas a stubborn person eventually fixed.
If you're fighting a villain or in an environment with equipment destruction, chances of getting more than two guns in play for an unload aren't very high.
I have enjoyed a few Unloads, but I still think it's not reasonable to count the card as one-shot damage when it only enhances your ability to use Powers to deal damage.
But it is a one-shot, and it does enhance your ability to deal damage.
Similarly Overdrive is a one-shot that increases your damage.
The dependancy on cards in play is no more than Tachyon's burst mechanic relies on cards in the trash. You can play Lightspeed Barrage or Sonic Vortex for 0 damage, and you can use Unload and gain no powers. Both are very good and very powerful cards.
I've been in 5 games with Expatriette and I don't think I have ever seen her with both more than one gun and unload at the same time. So for me Unload has added no damage.
Unfortunate. Thats the thing with Bell Curves and probabilities. Someone somewhere will be that bottom tail.
Got a "newbie" player in her 2nd game ever using Unload with four guns in play to finish off Ambuscade last week.
But it is a one-shot, and it does enhance your ability to deal damage.Similarly Overdrive is a one-shot that increases your damage.The dependancy on cards in play is no more than Tachyon's burst mechanic relies on cards in the trash. You can play Lightspeed Barrage or Sonic Vortex for 0 damage, and you can use Unload and gain no powers. Both are very good and very powerful cards.
Well, it's a bit more. A lot of villain and environmental stuff put cards into the trash. That both makes card-dependent one-shots less powerful, and a trash-dependent card like LIghtspeed Barrage more powerul.
As I recall there's more villain cards that remove dependency cards, then there are villain cards that remove Tachyon's dependency trash.
But it is a one-shot, and it does enhance your ability to deal damage.Similarly Overdrive is a one-shot that increases your damage.
Fixer always has his Strike; Expat does not always have her guns. In and of itself, Overdrive is a weaker Charge, but you have more copies of it and can get extras from Salvage Yard. If you're counting Unload as extra one-shot damage because it lets you use more guns, you might as well also count Arsenal Access and Quick-Draw, because they let you get more guns (or more importantly your first gun).
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
But it is a one-shot, and it does enhance your ability to deal damage.Similarly Overdrive is a one-shot that increases your damage.
Fixer always has his Strike; Expat does not always have her guns. In and of itself, Overdrive is a weaker Charge, but you have more copies of it and can get extras from Salvage Yard. If you're counting Unload as extra one-shot damage because it lets you use more guns, you might as well also count Arsenal Access and Quick-Draw, because they let you get more guns (or more importantly your first gun).
And you do not see the profound difference between the effect of "getting" vs "using" as it pertains to the defenition the rubric uses?
If I have no guns in play, Quick Draw is adding 2 damage to my potential turn, while Unload is not. QED.
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
So basically, how did she get those numbers? I think the boost is coming from the ammo and I agree with it. I think the one-shot is coming from unload in which case I disagree. Unload and RPG together with nothing else do not warrent a 4.
One-Shot damage is a scale on what kind of damage output you can shell out through one-shots. Between Rocket Launcher and a supped up Unload, her one-shots, per card, have a very large damage potential. Unload gets better with every gun you have out. Her top end with Unload is what earns her the 4. Sounds resonable to me. Can you compare it to other heros for reference as to maybe why it shouldnt be a 4?
Here is my thinking, although definitely influenced by my experience. I've seen Expat played probably somewhere between 30 and 40 times. Never in any play has she hit a full unload more than once in a game. In well over half the games she doesn't unload at all or does it with only say a shot gun an assault rifle out (nearly half involve never drawing the card).
Now lets compare to say Ra or Tempest (both 5s I know). They both have one shots that do not rely on any other card, and more importantly SEVERAL of them. There is rarely a time when you can go more than a turn or two with either of these heros where you can't play a one shot that deals damage. So even if one of these one shots does potentially less damage, the frequency and reliability are much higher. More than one point worth.
AZ is only a three and like Expat his cards require a lot of setup on his part. However you can get some major output from them with that setup. I see the two as fairly equivalent. I just don't think that two cards, one of which may be amazing, but may be no big deal constitute a ranking of 4 out of 5.
Ok, so that was my thinking. Now when I go back and review the whole table I really think a lot of heros look weird. I realy think there is a huge gap between the 4s and 5s. There are no 1s and only a single 2. I think that whole curve could be smoothed out.
So I would have given Expat a 2-3 probably but I'm not setting the scale either.
If I have no guns in play, Quick Draw is adding 2 damage to my potential turn, while Unload is not. QED.
And what makes you think this isn't already taken into account? Making a point would be optimal.
@Sefirit: Thats a good observation about the curve not being even. I am not sure the scores are supposed to be standardized that way as to smooth it out. That would be something Skippy would have to comment on as it is his rubric.
In addition to my last post, I would say that Haka > Expat for how I'm hearing one shots described. Haka of Battle is better than Unload for single targest and Rampage is often better for multiple targets.
In addition to my last post, I would say that Haka > Expat for how I'm hearing one shots described. Haka of Battle is better than Unload for single targest and Rampage is often better for multiple targets.
Haka being a 3 in one-shot damage while Fixer sits at 4 doesn't sit well at all.
If AZ is sitting at a 3 as well, maybe Skippy is deducting points for collateral team/self damage? That wouldn't make sense though seeing as Nightmist is at a 5.
The only rating where I judged for being used in a vacuum is Base Power.
Haka of Battle is a one-shot that boosts damage. It does not cause damage to be dealt. Haka has a 4 in boost damage, a 4 in healing and a 4 in damage reduction.
All of those are heavily based on one-shots that do those specific things.
Haka of Battle boosts damage. Haka of Restoration heals. Haka of Shielding reduced damage taken.
His one shot damage is rampage and Elbow Smash. Rampage bets downgraded for hitting hero targets (cost) and Elbow Smash isn't that great. He gets a 3, largely because Rampage is still sick. AZ, Wraith, Unity, OX get 3's as well.
I didn't just judge by face value, but their likely impact Expat doesn't play Unload when she has 1 or 0 guns in play, and is more likely to use them when she has more. Just Like Tachyon's Lightspeed barrage, you can choose to play it at 0 damage, but that would be you playing it badly, not her card being bad.
Fixer gets a 4 because he has 7 one shots that deal damage, and 2 more that put one in play. Those one shots vary in power, but all are likely to add a lot more damage than most one shots. Just under 1/4 of his deck is a very good number, and each at least doubles his damage output. That is strong one-shot damage.
Expat has 5 One Shots, RPG Launcher is 2 targets 2 damage, that is pretty good (again I'm assuming you aren't being dumb and playing it with nothing to destroy, and it isn't like Environment cards are a rare commodity) Unload is very powerful, and can rival Wrathful Retribution in damage when played in great situations. Even with average usage you should have two or three guns to shoot, which is really good damage.
I have it as superior to Rampage, slightly less than Lightspeed Barrage, and better than Overdrive or Charge (not in quantity but power).
Have been looking for something like this, incase i need to tell people about heroes i dont play that often myself. Would be pretty cool if we could get this updated with vengence heroes aswell. Would be really cool if someone with some graphical talents could turn this into some sort of graph, diagram or easily digestable format, you could hand out to new people when they need to pick a hero.
Totally forgot to update for Vengeance. Although Honestly I don't play those heroes enough, I don't think I could rate Naturalist or KNYFE at all, I'll have to work on it.
I'd love to see how you would rate Setback.
I'd venture to guess all the Vengeance heros would score pretty high. KNYFE is the closest to a middle of the pack hero. The rest of them are straight powerhouses.
Totally forgot to update for Vengeance. Although Honestly I don't play those heroes enough, I don't think I could rate Naturalist or KNYFE at all, I'll have to work on it.
I'd love to see how you would rate Setback.I'd venture to guess all the Vengeance heros would score pretty high. KNYFE is the closest to a middle of the pack hero. The rest of them are straight powerhouses.
Yeah I was just thinking about that. That's why I don't play them as much. I really like more nuanced heroes, and the Vengeance heroes are just crazy strong. Naturalist will be really tough as well.
Parse will be the hardest, since I'm actually missing 3 cards from her deck. Need to find that card list so I can order new ones.
That's why I don't play them as much. I really like more nuanced heroes, and the Vengeance heroes are just crazy strong. Naturalist will be really tough as well.Parse will be the hardest, since I'm actually missing 3 cards from her deck. Need to find that card list so I can order new ones.
As an anecdote, I do not think I'v lost a game yet in which Naturalist was present.
I got destroyed in a game that had The Naturalist and KNYFE in it against La Capitan
Edit: Based on my playthroughs I think I lose with the new vengeance characters mixed just as often as I did with the characters before that. Only The Sentinels to me seem to win a lot when used in a group
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
I've had the Dreamer crush our team of Naturalist, Visionary, KNYFE and AZ. Most of the Vengeance heroes are pretty strong but not OP, in my opinion.
Edit: But I am hoping for a bump in difficulty for the new villains and environments in Wrath of the Cosmos to compensate for these somewhat stronger heroes. I hope we only get 3's and 4's for villain difficulty in WotC.
I've had the Dreamer crush our team of Naturalist, Visionary, KNYFE and AZ. Most of the Vengeance heroes are pretty strong but not OP, in my opinion. Edit: But I am hoping for a bump in difficulty for the new villains and environments in Wrath of the Cosmos to compensate for these somewhat stronger heroes. I hope we only get 3's and 4's for villain difficulty in WotC.
Rhino form should be pretty boss against Dreamer with that group.
Sentinels are ridiculously strong. Only Greatest Legacy and TLT have a higher win rate and I think they are both considered pretty OP.
Naturalist is mixed right in with the stronger though not OP heroes.
Setback and Knyfe are in the bottom middle of the pack. They both have win rates over 70% which I kind of use as the cut off to determine if a hero is weak.*
Parse is pretty low in her win percentage beating out only Expat, Fixer, Bunker, AZ and various alternate heroes. We all know how much those four have been debated.
*This makes less sense than it used too, at one point there was a sudden gap from 71% down to 68% with no heroes in it which is why started thinking in those terms. This gap seems to have been smoothed out. Though the gap between AA and Parse is over 1% and the only other places this happens is way at the top of the list with what are generally considered the OP or at least very strong heroes.
Speaking of the awesome statistics project! The only statistics I typically pay attention to are the ones that G+ submits!
Parse is actually our hero that wins the least, at 60%! She also has 97 less appearance than our highest appearing hero, Argent Adept at 132. So I don't really want to draw anything too much off of only 35 games. Currently, our bottom 3 heroes (not including promos) are Parse, K.N.Y.F.E., and Setback. None of which are above 70%. But once again, <50 games, so it doesn't say much to me, still a bit of learning, unlucky randomization and so on.
Our bottom 3 heroes (not including promos) with more than 100 games are; Expatriette (77%), Absolute Zero (78%), and Unity(79%). Which isn't so bad, considering our highest 3 heroes (not including promos) are; The Wraith (88%), Haka (87%), and The Scholar (87%). Only a 11% difference between the highest and lowest.
Anyways! I'm getting a bit distracted. I really don't see the Vengeance heroes are vastly superior than any other hero, as I have stated many times for all heroes. I certainly haven't seen any heroes as being impossible to lose with.
Last game with Expatriette was with DW Exp. I had Pride, Predjudice, and an Assault Rifle with one Aim in place, and played an Unload. Second Aim and fired all three guns. Was a glorious turn.
(Of course, she died start of the next villain turn, but it was a blast to play it!)
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)
If you're fighting a villain or in an environment with equipment destruction, chances of getting more than two guns in play for an unload aren't very high.
Good ideas are usually just bad ideas a stubborn person eventually fixed.
Thats the fun part about chance is it not?
Source: decent gambler
But it is a one-shot, and it does enhance your ability to deal damage.
Similarly Overdrive is a one-shot that increases your damage.
The dependancy on cards in play is no more than Tachyon's burst mechanic relies on cards in the trash. You can play Lightspeed Barrage or Sonic Vortex for 0 damage, and you can use Unload and gain no powers. Both are very good and very powerful cards.
Got a "newbie" player in her 2nd game ever using Unload with four guns in play to finish off Ambuscade last week.
And I bet he doesn't see the irony.
Just assume I'm always doing that.
Damn it, Ronway!
Well, it's a bit more. A lot of villain and environmental stuff put cards into the trash. That both makes card-dependent one-shots less powerful, and a trash-dependent card like LIghtspeed Barrage more powerul.
As I recall there's more villain cards that remove dependency cards, then there are villain cards that remove Tachyon's dependency trash.
Avid player, playtester
Fixer always has his Strike; Expat does not always have her guns. In and of itself, Overdrive is a weaker Charge, but you have more copies of it and can get extras from Salvage Yard. If you're counting Unload as extra one-shot damage because it lets you use more guns, you might as well also count Arsenal Access and Quick-Draw, because they let you get more guns (or more importantly your first gun).
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
And you do not see the profound difference between the effect of "getting" vs "using" as it pertains to the defenition the rubric uses?
If I have no guns in play, Quick Draw is adding 2 damage to my potential turn, while Unload is not. QED.
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
Here is my thinking, although definitely influenced by my experience. I've seen Expat played probably somewhere between 30 and 40 times. Never in any play has she hit a full unload more than once in a game. In well over half the games she doesn't unload at all or does it with only say a shot gun an assault rifle out (nearly half involve never drawing the card).
Now lets compare to say Ra or Tempest (both 5s I know). They both have one shots that do not rely on any other card, and more importantly SEVERAL of them. There is rarely a time when you can go more than a turn or two with either of these heros where you can't play a one shot that deals damage. So even if one of these one shots does potentially less damage, the frequency and reliability are much higher. More than one point worth.
AZ is only a three and like Expat his cards require a lot of setup on his part. However you can get some major output from them with that setup. I see the two as fairly equivalent. I just don't think that two cards, one of which may be amazing, but may be no big deal constitute a ranking of 4 out of 5.
Ok, so that was my thinking. Now when I go back and review the whole table I really think a lot of heros look weird. I realy think there is a huge gap between the 4s and 5s. There are no 1s and only a single 2. I think that whole curve could be smoothed out.
So I would have given Expat a 2-3 probably but I'm not setting the scale either.
And what makes you think this isn't already taken into account? Making a point would be optimal.
@Sefirit: Thats a good observation about the curve not being even. I am not sure the scores are supposed to be standardized that way as to smooth it out. That would be something Skippy would have to comment on as it is his rubric.
In addition to my last post, I would say that Haka > Expat for how I'm hearing one shots described. Haka of Battle is better than Unload for single targest and Rampage is often better for multiple targets.
Haka being a 3 in one-shot damage while Fixer sits at 4 doesn't sit well at all.
If AZ is sitting at a 3 as well, maybe Skippy is deducting points for collateral team/self damage? That wouldn't make sense though seeing as Nightmist is at a 5.
The only rating where I judged for being used in a vacuum is Base Power.
Haka of Battle is a one-shot that boosts damage. It does not cause damage to be dealt. Haka has a 4 in boost damage, a 4 in healing and a 4 in damage reduction.
All of those are heavily based on one-shots that do those specific things.
Haka of Battle boosts damage. Haka of Restoration heals. Haka of Shielding reduced damage taken.
His one shot damage is rampage and Elbow Smash. Rampage bets downgraded for hitting hero targets (cost) and Elbow Smash isn't that great. He gets a 3, largely because Rampage is still sick. AZ, Wraith, Unity, OX get 3's as well.
I didn't just judge by face value, but their likely impact Expat doesn't play Unload when she has 1 or 0 guns in play, and is more likely to use them when she has more. Just Like Tachyon's Lightspeed barrage, you can choose to play it at 0 damage, but that would be you playing it badly, not her card being bad.
Fixer gets a 4 because he has 7 one shots that deal damage, and 2 more that put one in play. Those one shots vary in power, but all are likely to add a lot more damage than most one shots. Just under 1/4 of his deck is a very good number, and each at least doubles his damage output. That is strong one-shot damage.
Expat has 5 One Shots, RPG Launcher is 2 targets 2 damage, that is pretty good (again I'm assuming you aren't being dumb and playing it with nothing to destroy, and it isn't like Environment cards are a rare commodity) Unload is very powerful, and can rival Wrathful Retribution in damage when played in great situations. Even with average usage you should have two or three guns to shoot, which is really good damage.
I have it as superior to Rampage, slightly less than Lightspeed Barrage, and better than Overdrive or Charge (not in quantity but power).
Have been looking for something like this, incase i need to tell people about heroes i dont play that often myself. Would be pretty cool if we could get this updated with vengence heroes aswell. Would be really cool if someone with some graphical talents could turn this into some sort of graph, diagram or easily digestable format, you could hand out to new people when they need to pick a hero.
Totally forgot to update for Vengeance.
Although Honestly I don't play those heroes enough, I don't think I could rate Naturalist or KNYFE at all, I'll have to work on it.
I'd love to see how you would rate Setback.
I'd venture to guess all the Vengeance heros would score pretty high. KNYFE is the closest to a middle of the pack hero. The rest of them are straight powerhouses.
Yeah I was just thinking about that. That's why I don't play them as much. I really like more nuanced heroes, and the Vengeance heroes are just crazy strong. Naturalist will be really tough as well.
Parse will be the hardest, since I'm actually missing 3 cards from her deck. Need to find that card list so I can order new ones.
As an anecdote, I do not think I'v lost a game yet in which Naturalist was present.
I got destroyed in a game that had The Naturalist and KNYFE in it against La Capitan
Edit: Based on my playthroughs I think I lose with the new vengeance characters mixed just as often as I did with the characters before that. Only The Sentinels to me seem to win a lot when used in a group
Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31
I've had the Dreamer crush our team of Naturalist, Visionary, KNYFE and AZ. Most of the Vengeance heroes are pretty strong but not OP, in my opinion.
Edit: But I am hoping for a bump in difficulty for the new villains and environments in Wrath of the Cosmos to compensate for these somewhat stronger heroes. I hope we only get 3's and 4's for villain difficulty in WotC.
Rhino form should be pretty boss against Dreamer with that group.
Well, they don't have nearly as many games as the other heros, but according to this:
http://public.tableausoftware.com/profile/#!/vizhome/Sentinels1/Overview
Sentinels are ridiculously strong. Only Greatest Legacy and TLT have a higher win rate and I think they are both considered pretty OP.
Naturalist is mixed right in with the stronger though not OP heroes.
Setback and Knyfe are in the bottom middle of the pack. They both have win rates over 70% which I kind of use as the cut off to determine if a hero is weak.*
Parse is pretty low in her win percentage beating out only Expat, Fixer, Bunker, AZ and various alternate heroes. We all know how much those four have been debated.
*This makes less sense than it used too, at one point there was a sudden gap from 71% down to 68% with no heroes in it which is why started thinking in those terms. This gap seems to have been smoothed out. Though the gap between AA and Parse is over 1% and the only other places this happens is way at the top of the list with what are generally considered the OP or at least very strong heroes.
You have to try pretty hard to loose a game with Parse. Grains of salt I guess.
Speaking of the awesome statistics project! The only statistics I typically pay attention to are the ones that G+ submits!
Parse is actually our hero that wins the least, at 60%! She also has 97 less appearance than our highest appearing hero, Argent Adept at 132. So I don't really want to draw anything too much off of only 35 games. Currently, our bottom 3 heroes (not including promos) are Parse, K.N.Y.F.E., and Setback. None of which are above 70%. But once again, <50 games, so it doesn't say much to me, still a bit of learning, unlucky randomization and so on.
Our bottom 3 heroes (not including promos) with more than 100 games are; Expatriette (77%), Absolute Zero (78%), and Unity(79%). Which isn't so bad, considering our highest 3 heroes (not including promos) are; The Wraith (88%), Haka (87%), and The Scholar (87%). Only a 11% difference between the highest and lowest.
Anyways! I'm getting a bit distracted. I really don't see the Vengeance heroes are vastly superior than any other hero, as I have stated many times for all heroes. I certainly haven't seen any heroes as being impossible to lose with.
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