I tried a while ago to make a rating system for heroes, and it got complicated, well today I finished it.
I wanted to rate them in ways that showed how they contribute to a fight, and reflect their strengths and weaknesses; not come up with a conclusive list that shows what hero is the best.
I judged them in 4 categories:
Offense
Defense
Support
Mechanics
Each category I broke down into four parts, and gave each part a 0-5 rating, then for a rough overview added up each category.
The original spread sheet is RIGHT HERE.
Each graded part might not be clear as to what I was grading, so here is a basic explanation:
Offense:
Relieable damage: Given 2 cards in play, how many different combos deal damage, and how effectively (early game and small set up)
Damage Boosting: increasing damage dealt, yours and others (bonus for boosting others)
One Shots: Damage dealt by one-shots
High End Damage: With all the cards you could want, how much can you throw down over several turns.
Defense:
Damage Reduction involves reducing damage taken by heroes
Damage Prevention involves reducing damage dealt by villains, being immune to damage and redirection.
Healing is recovery for you and others
Tanking is redirecting damage away from a hero to a different hero target. (usually yourself, but smoke bombs is also tanking)
Support:
Destruction: How much destructoin you have, Env and Ongoing, how many cards do it, how reliable is it, how much cost for doing so.
Ally Card Help: How much the hero can put cards in other heroes hands or in play.
Synergy: How well this deck makes other decks better in ways not already covered.
Deck Manipulation: Messing with non-hero decks ability to play cards, or what cards are in the deck.
Mechanics:
Search: Cards that pull cards from your deck or trash, and less reliable extra draws.
Base Power: If you have no cards in play how good is your power? (sucks to be AZ, Adept or Unity)
Card Draw/Play: how fast you can draw and play cards in general throughout the game.
Internal Combos: How well the deck interacts with itself in ways not covered already. (things like Legacy Ring, chaining Instruments etc.)
Enjoy this frivolous exercise in how to waste time while waiting for my son to fall asleep, and excuse to argue about SotM stuff.
Nightmist's Support total seems to be math'ed incorrectly.
As far as the findings go? It all seemed pretty much how I'd expect it to look. Nightmist edging out Argent Adept for top support slot is what tiped me off to the calculation.
Strong work.
Thanks, fixed.
I don't know how much it would affect the over all scoring, but AZ getting a 0 in tanking seems a little off to me. Granted, he may not be the best, but once he is set up he tanks pretty decently (not as well as legacy or scholar, but well enough)
Just my thought on it
When the dust clears.... there is only Bunker
"Tanking is redirecting damage away from a hero to a different hero target. (usually yourself, but smoke bombs is also tanking)"
It's perhaps not the word I would have used for redirection, but by the given definition AZ does indeed have none of it.
“You gotta have blue hair."
-Reckless
Perhaps "Damage Control" would be a better term, as in you are controlling where the damage goes, whom it hits, etc?
I am the Wordweaver...
Basically, I like writing stuff ;)
Ok yeah, if you are going by that definition I can see him with a zero.
When the dust clears.... there is only Bunker
Zero's Defensive total should be 4, not 3. If that changes anything. How he got a 1 in damage reduction is slightly odd. Was SubZero Atmo the culprit for the lone point there? Seems to fit within your rubric, but just curious since we were talkin AZ
My guess is Cryo Chamber, which reduces fire damage by 1.
Ah that would make sense.
Fixed some more number errors.
I used tanking to mean taking damage for other heroes, since Highest HP tanking is better covered by the other three ratings in defensive.
For Sub-Zero Atmosphere, I put that under Deck Manipulation, which is why he has a 4 there, that card is sick. I put it on the level of Savage Mana and IR Eyepiece, ahead of No Executions, into the Stratoshpere and Takedown.
Also a second chart for the Promo Heroes is now included.
I broke my ranking system for Dark Visionary. The Visionary was a well-deserved 5 in deck manipulation, so adding the most powerful deck manipulation mecanic in the game had to break the ceiling of 5 for ratings.
Since I think just her base power alone would give a hero a 5 in deck manipulation I gave her a 10. There is just no way to be reasonable when judging the power Dark Visionary wields over decks.
TLT should also get a 10 in whatever category corresponds to making your allies (and yourself) draw cards.
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
She got a 5 in helping allies with cards, a 5 in her own drawing/playing cards, and a 5 for her base power.
Those should all be like 7 or 8 then, by the same logic as with Dark Visi. Nobody else even comes close.
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
There are three categories that account for that ability, and she improved each one. The visionary is already the undisputed queen of deck manipulation, to add the most broken power in the game to that kit is why I went over the allotted points.
Team Leader Tachyon gains 1 in reliable damage, 2 in ally card help, and 3 in Base power. She loses one in Internal Combos for a net gain of 5.
Visionary gains 5 in deck manipulation, 1 in base power and loses 4 in Ally Card Help for a net gain of 2.
I don't think I under represented Team Leader there.
Like so many things around this game, much of this is perspective. We all play the heroes a little differently, focusing on things we personally prefer, things that better fit our personalities, etc.
I think what phantaskippy created is great! I might not agree with all the individual rankings (although there are few I don't agree with), but on the whole it's really interesting stuff.
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)
Rabit, what ones would you change?
One of the reasons I posted this is I am interested in how other people see the balance of the game compared to how I see it.
I know. Unfortunately, life's been (as usual
) stupid-busy and I usually don't have time to do much here on the site for more than a few minutes at a time.
Having said that, I made a little more time to look more closely. I discovered that many of the things I originally thought I'd change (such as Bunker and Expat's Base Power of 1) actually make sense, in the context of the other powers, thinking about how often they are used, etc. I would have to do a more thorough analysis to give you really useful feedback, but the time's not readily available - sorry.
The only thing that stands out to me right now is AZ's Searching. Chrono has the ability to search for two different kinds of cards, so his Searching of 5 makes sense. AZ's searching of 5 seems high to me, and I would probably put it at a 4 - more in line with AA's.
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal
Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)
I was going to argue with you, but I think you have a good point. Adept is probably more of a five than AZ, and AZ is more a four.
May I recomend this thread for Sticky status?
Skippy, why did you choose to omit a "total" section for each hero? The results are interesting. Lets take a look:
EP 30 DW 33
BK 32 EoW 34 WWII 34
AZ 36 EW 36
FX 38 DW 38
RA 38 Beard 39
TA 38 TLT 43
CR 41
UN 42 G 42
AA 44
VS 44 D 46
OX 45
FA 47 R 47
NM 47 DW 47
HA 48 E 47
SC 48
TP 48 S 46
LG 50 Y 51 Gramps 51
WR 57 RC 55 PF 55
I have listed ther "Overall" data from Skippys spread sheet, listed them from lowest to greatest, and included promos to the right.
Interesting take aways:
So guys, now that the most general of conclusions has been calculated and posted, what surprises you the most? Do these "overall" rankings call into question some of the specific numbers Skippy chose?
Nerf Wraith!
Can't wait to see where the Vengeance heros fall into this system
Edit: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqClP82b_XgZdGJKUVJRakJmZ3R...
http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/Sentinels1/DetailedView?:embed=y&:display_count=no%C2%A0which
Here are links to both current Statistics projects for reference
Bah! It won't open on my system and I love numbers!
What system are you using that can't open a google.doc?
Probably one like mine. I created my Google Docs on this computer, but because Google feels entitled to constantly "improve" their technology so that it doesn't work with anything that's more than five minutes obsolete, I now have to go to a different computer in order to edit them, and then download a read-only copy and email it to myself to read back on this computer. Science and progress, folks; it kills the dinosaurs (except on Insula Primalis, at least).
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
Something like that. The spreadsheet for all the hero/villian losses works fine though.
I didn't even look at the sheet, just glanced at this thread. But I probably will end up looking at the sheet in-depth later on since I tend to like statical breakdown and analysis (especially with sports).
Not surprising. She is really great at a number of things. Her only weaknesses are equipment destruction and lower HP. Her power level is mainly contained in her cards, not the character power. I consider Wraith top 3 in the game in overall power/usefulness (along with Legacy and NightMist).
I would put the Argent Adept above Legacy, because he contributes more to a low-H game. And I would put Omnitron-X above both of them. No argument on Nightmist, though...she's crazy good.
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
I'm a little curious how Expat got a 3 in boost damage and a 4 in One-shot damage. I ask, because the only one-shot that she has that does damage is RPG so this score should be much lower, but you might then count unload and ammo as one shots and its ok.
However, if you do this then she has no boost in her deck (ammo counting as one shots) so THAT score should be much lower unless that means she benefits well when others boost her damage and then its ok but doesn't fit your definition.
So basically, how did she get those numbers?
I think the boost is coming from the ammo and I agree with it. I think the one-shot is coming from unload in which case I disagree. Unload and RPG together with nothing else do not warrent a 4.
Overall I'm a little surprised Unity isn't Lower and Argent isn't higher but otherwise the list doens't surprise me.
I do think we may be undervaluing some things and over valuing other in this system. Deck cycle for example is very valuable. There are plenty of times when a hero has the right card for a situation but it is barried in their deck. I think TLT's win percentage on the stats page as much as anything shows that letting everyone draw a card every turn is worth like 5xH points.
One-Shot damage is a scale on what kind of damage output you can shell out through one-shots. Between Rocket Launcher and a supped up Unload, her one-shots, per card, have a very large damage potential. Unload gets better with every gun you have out. Her top end with Unload is what earns her the 4. Sounds resonable to me.
Can you compare it to other heros for reference as to maybe why it shouldnt be a 4?
Unload is worthless without a gun. To me, One-Shot Damage ought to cover how much potential the hero does to deal damage once with a single card played from their hand, assuming no bonuses, though perhaps adjusting the score for the potential for bonuses (eg Fixer might score higher than Haka, or at least not lower, but both of them fall far short of Tempest and Ra). Expat's only way to do damage without having to expend her Power phase is RPG Launcher, and that won't work if she doesn't have an Ongoing or Environment card to destroy. I would give her a 1 in One-Shot damage, compared to a 2 or 3 for Haka and Fixer, a 4 for Legacy and probably Absolute Zero, and a 5 for Ra. Whether Tempest should be a 4 or a 5 I'm not sure. I'm also unsure where to put Nightmist, since she has the potential to put out a lot of one-shot damage but is usually hurting herself, if not the entire team, in the process.
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
One-shot is based on how much damage one-shot cards add to the deck. Unload is Expat's damage dealing card.
I put her with Fixer and Chrono, because while Chrono has constant pings of damage, they add a ton of damage to the deck, Expat sits on the other side of that, but the value of Unload is similar to the value of Lightspeed Barrage, which is a big part of Tachyon's 5 in one-shot damage. Fixer has Overdrive and Charge, which really boost his deck damage.
Her damage boosting is all ammo, but it is one of the best situational damage boosting systems the game has.
As for the importance of deck mechanics relative to other ratings: I fully agree, which is why this wasn't intended to give an overall rating for heroes. Tachyon is the obvious victim, as her deck is overall weak, except for the speed at which it plays, and that makes her incredibly good.
You can totally still play RPG Launcher without any Ongoings or Environment cards in play.
You can, but you won't deal damage.
Im pretty sure the damage is not dependant on the destruction.
It definitely involves an "If you do"
I agree (and want the ziggurat to continue).
Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all
At the start of your forum turn you may hit Quote.
If you do continue the Ziggurat.
Since I am on my cell phone, I hate you all.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"
Fueled by your hatred, the tower grows ever skyward.
I am intrigued to see that it only bolds the first two names in the magnificent structure, I wonder why?
Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all
I'm really beginning to think the forum needs to have a "no quote-towers" rule.
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
Envisioner wrote:
Why would you say that?
Envisioner fears the ziggurat. WE'VE FOUND HIS WEAKNESS!
“You gotta have blue hair."
-Reckless
I'm not the one who's on a mobile phone here. Others have pointed out how this behavior is bothering them, and yet you lot persist, for no visible reason other than to annoy those people.
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
*ducks for cover*
I can only assume that the ultimate conclusion of this topic is that it's a great excuse to argue?
Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.
And finally this thread starts achieving its purpose.
I've been in 5 games with Expatriette and I don't think I have ever seen her with both more than one gun and unload at the same time. So for me Unload has added no damage.
"Deja-fu? You've heard of that?"
- Lu Tze, Sweeper, Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett
I have enjoyed a few Unloads, but I still think it's not reasonable to count the card as one-shot damage when it only enhances your ability to use Powers to deal damage.
"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"
Unfortunate. Thats the thing with Bell Curves and probabilities. Someone somewhere will be that bottom tail.
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