So, over in the "your most frustrating Hero to play" thread, I expressed smone annoyance with Absolute Zero for having an unexciting setup and poor performance as he worked on it (as well as Bunker for just never seeming to deliver all that much, and Tempest for being overpowered and boring). This is, as many may know and I should have guessed, a frequent subject of flame wars, and of course, when you deal fire damage to Absolute Zero, you only add more interactions.
So, to avoid derailing that thread, anyone who wants to address the content of my (absurdly long) wall of text can do so here!
The rant in question is thus:
To my mind, Absolute Zero VERY strongly encourages you to get both Null-Point Calibration Unit and Isothermic Transducer into play before you do anything else. You can go it with just one (being a self-sacrificial damage-dealer or a mediocre tank), but much more so than, say, KNYFE, I feel like I am being ounished for my haste/bad luck. And, of course, most of the famous examples of him dealing serious damage come from Thermal Shockwave, but as that's a card with only two copies and none of his search/recursion tech works on it, good luck with that.
As for his ineffective state without a setup: how about being a Hero who can only damage yourself? This is his literal starting state, and it is the weakest in the game.
But if you want a more detailed example, consider this: Cryo Chamber, Focused Aperatures, Glacial Structure, and Modular Realignment are, collectively, 11 cards - more than a quarter of a Hero deck! - which, among themselves and AZ's base Power, do exactly nothing to impact any aspect of the game (unless you need to tank some Fire damage, I guess). Sure, Glacial Structure lets you see more cards... by skipping your Play and Power phases. And remember that it costs you a card. You know what else nets you a two-card gain at the cost of both Play and Power? A default game mechanic that everyone has access to. I am reasonably certain that no other hero has a quarter of their deck which can see them doing nothing on the opening turns... indeed, it is totally impossible, since the only other Heroes who have potentially-useless Powers are The Argent Adept and Setback. Neither one has Discard-only tutoring, or passive cards which cannot accomplish something when combined with base Powers. The closest they get is the Adept opening to all six Intruments in a row, and that's still only half as many temporarily dead cards (none of which are as truly dead as Glacial Structure).
This is not purely a thought excercise. These cards, plus Fueled Freeze and Isothermic Transducer were all that a close friend of mine drew in her first game as Absolute Zero (and the Transducer came out after she had played the Cryo Chamber, so that was another hoop to jump through). This contributed in a meaningful way to her giving up on Sentinels entirely. I will allow that may bias me some, but that's not all there is to it.
For starters, the scenario above isn't even the only crippling draw for Absolute Zero. Combined, his Modules and Module-seeking One-Shots account for sixteen cards! Sixteen cards, which amount to either dealing a single point of damage, healing a single point of damage, or occasionally playing a Realignment (painfully, if you don't have any targets for it in your Trash) to do both. That's totally crazy. I always thought that Ra was excessive with eight copies of Staff/Summon Staff, but at least when you loop those together, you're healing 3 and dealing 4 each turn, which is a wild improvement over a setup-only AbZero. The Argent Adept is totally built around his setup, but Instruments and Conjurations of same only account for 11 cards in his deck, and you get benefits from playing more than two. Nightmist's setup is a lot more versatile and powerful without One-Shot support, and even it only comes out to twelve cards - and this on a Hero who totally revolves around card draw and discard! Nobody has as many bad draws, or is as useless when getting them, as poor Absolute Zero. And that's a crying shame.
You see, I really like Absolute Zero. I think he's a neat character, and that his gameplay does a good job of conveying it - I would say he's got the most evocative design of the original ten heroes! When I play him, and the pieces come together, it's brilliant. But much, much more often, I find that they don't. Either he's too mired in dead cards to make a workable setup, or he's getting nuked out of his setup and painfully aware that without it he can only hurt himself, or he's set up quickly but then drawing nothing but Modules and Module-seeking cards with no greater damage source in sight - the combination of two Modules AND Thermal Shockwave AND a steady flow of damaging One-Shots (there are only seven in his deck, and I'd played him twice before I saw any except Fueled Freeze) is just way too unreliable. I feel like a lot of people get that setup one game by pure random chance (or maybe Visionary/Team Leader Tachyon/some other hero more effective than Absolute Zero), and they think "oh, I didn't get this guy before, but now that I understand him, he's awesome". But while there are some counterintuitive principles to grasp, mostly, it's a counterintuitive deck messing you about.
Fortunately, I don't see this as a problem without a solution. I simply changed the numbers of a few cards in his deck (for example, down to three of each Module, and five Module Instalations, which now search both deck and discard like everyone else's setup cards - I mostly added more damaging One-Shots in the new five cards of space). And I read his power as "Absolute Zero deals himself 1 Fire or 1 Cold damage. Draw a card." Combined with a few tweaks to how other things work (Glacial Structure is both an Ongoing and an Equipment, and lets you draw whenever it gets destroyed, so it at least has value shielding the rest of your setup), his damage/taking potential is exactly the same as in the printed version, but he now gets good games often and garbage ones rarely.
"Is it a bird?"
"Is it a plane?"
"No... it's ironic!"
I have no strong views on AZ, but I'd disagree with this statement, because occasionally being able to hurt yourself is useful. For example, if you're a hit point above Tachyon and she has a Synaptic Interruption and something big's gonna go down, that little bit of self-harm is crucial. It's a corner case, yes, but as a power in a vacuum it's still a (teensy weensy) notch above Vocalise.
“You gotta have blue hair."
-Reckless
I'm still unsure what this "one setup to work towards" exactly is, but at least now I know it contains both Modules and Thermal Shockwave. Which certainly is a good setup, but I totally get into other setups that do not use any of those cards.
Such as, Impaling the crap of something and Cold Snaping, toss in some Focused Appertures, woo! 8 damage to the villain character card, 2 to the rest, just as a start my turn too! Compare that too the modules and Thermal Shockwave, toss Focused Aperatures to make it an even 4 versus 4 card setup. So Thermal Shockwave hits AZ to heal, thus taking advantacge of the Null-point. Then 2 more targets for 2 cold. He would then deal himself 4 fire, to deal 5 cold to one of the previous targets. Making, 7 damage to one target, 2 to another, and 3 to self. Interesting, isn't it?
As for Glacial Structure being the same as drawing two cards that everyone can do.
That is drawing 4 cards. Not sure what the "it cost you a card" is about. Considering AZ does not do anything based on his hand size, and the point of drawing really isn't about increasing your handsize, but getting deeper into your deck. While the drawing two mechainc that everyone can do, only gets 2 cards deeper into your deck... Now i'm no statistics expert, but I would certainly say that drawing 4 cards would increase the odd of drawing something good than just drawing 2.
On the topic of heroes who would be unable to do anything on their first turn, Argent was mentions, citing he has 6 instruments that would warrant that. However, don't forget he also has 4 Instrumental Conjurations, which will simply cause him to get a one of those instruments from his deck. There is also Silver Shadow and Polyphoric Flare, 2 copies of each. Which actually brings that total up to 14 cards in his deck that would not be able to do something. Oh wait, why stop there? He also has the good ol' Harmony, Cedistic Dissonant, 2 copies of it, which will also do absolutely nothing on first play. That makes 16 cards, nearly half the deck. Unity, 14 bots, which is useless unless she equipment, or if an ally can supply it. So AZ totally is not the other hero whos deck would make him incapable of doing something.
Added in, as for the "hoop to jump through" on your friend playing Cryo Chamber, then drawing Isothermic Transducer. I'm not seeing an issue here. Use using the power on Cryo Chamber would cause 4 damage, to deal 4 to another target, then destroying it. That sounds pretty good to me!
I would argue that Argent Adept is worse in a vacuum than AZ (which is hardly surprising; sound can't travel in a vacuum and AZ probably has his own air supply). Without a "song" in play, Argent can do absolutely nothing; granted, with 18 songs and Arcane Cadence, he has good odds of being able to get set up on turn 1, better than the 12 cards which can make AZ's power effective. But at least AZ's ability to hurt himself might come in handy on occasions when you want to change who the highest-HP hero is - if AZ and O-X are 1 HP apart and Apostate has +1 to damage in an H=4 game, you can save Omnix's Components by bringing AZ into an HP tie with the time-traveler, so that 3 melee and 3 infernal damage are dealt to someone who can eventually heal themself, not to the fragile robot.
You still draw one card for the turn in addition to three from glacial structure, so it's a net gain of two cards for using up your play and power phases; the normal skip only grants you one extra. Plus it gets you deeper into your deck so you have better chances of finding your Modules and things that interact with them.
AZ can be frustrating, sure. But on occasions, he works really well, and some players live for those moments, without really minding the times they don't ever materialize. AZ is a hero for gamblers and math whizzes; there are plenty of other options for those whose playstyles don't run in this direction.
The scholar's power is useless if he's at full health. Fanatic's and Tempest's and Fixer's and Chrono-Ranger's powers are all useless when they have a net -1 to damage (net -2 is far less likely to occur under normal circumstances so I won't get into that, but there are plenty of cases where a single villain card and the lack of adequate hero cards can nerf these heroes. Either version of Unity's power is useless if she doesn't have a Bot in her hand. And any damage-dealing hero's power is useless on turn 1 against Miss Information if her starting Diversion isn't a target.
Sorry to hear about that. Nobody ought to give up on Sentinels on the basis of just one game (or even two or three), but of course people do not always do what they should. I hope maybe you can eventually get her to change her mind. And try a hero with more reliable utility.
You are aware that Ra's Summon Staff only searches from deck, yes?
That is quite potent. Perhaps not broken, but considering that self-damage is an asset as often as not for AZ, I hope you're comparing this to Redeemer Fanatic' rather than to Initialize Bunker.
"I'm starting to feel comic books lack realism."
"Master of Understatement: Level Up!"
--Two nearly-consecutive (in the other order) quotes from the webcomic "Grrl Power".
As you and BlueHairedMeerkat rightly point out, this was hyperbole. There are others who start off just as useless, and Unity even has deck control issue on par with AZ.
Of course, Unity is also a somewhat divisive Hero for this reason.
Not to start the game where everyone on the internet is an olympic athlete with an IQ of 180, but I consider myself rather good at math. It is this very trait which makes me dislike both gambling and Absolute Zero - both cases are weighted against my success.
Any power can be made useless by Regression Darts or other villain cards. Certain orders of cards in the decks can make playing itself pointless, if you get some perfect storm of badness out of Omnitron or Iron Legacy which makes it literally impossible to win regardless of your choices.
It's all kind of existential, really. It is also not my point.
So much of Absolute Zero's tech, power and cards alike, is useless without multiple turns of setup. He doesn't get to scale up like KNYFE or Unity does, he's either unleashing the Shockwave pain train, or he's a dead H slot.
She'd played two games as Tempest before, and one more after... but that's just trading one form of boring for another. Burned by AZ, she was not well-disposed to trying new heroes, and Tempest's lack of dramatic decisions didn't leave much to convince her that co-op game time was better spent on SotM than, say, Ghost Stories.
Eh, it happens. I mostly play SotM solo, anyway, and there's lots of games out there.
Sure, but he doesn't need it like AZ needs his modules... or like The Adept needs his Intruments and The Naturalist needs his Forms. They're more what I meant. (Nightmist and Unity are the only other ones who need their setup quite so badly, and both are more flexible in what they have out at a time, so more general tutoring works fine for them.)
I wouldn't balance a sick dog against Bunker. Redeemer Fanatic was the inspiration.
One problem is that it tends to really junk up AZ's hand over time - if I were performing more sunstantial re-writes, I'd give him a few discard effects.
"Is it a bird?"
"Is it a plane?"
"No... it's ironic!"
I did found interesting how you switched cards in his deck (you have 2 copies of the game?) and I do play him with variants. But I'm pretty sure those for and against Zero won't do much convincing to the other side.
"Is it a bird?"
"Is it a plane?"
"No... it's ironic!"
Is him healing himself not counted as doing damage? Is that the official ruling? I count it as damage, it just raises his HP instead of lowering it. I also count it as damage for other effects, including negative ones. (i.e "if damaged this way, cant deal damage, etc)
It's right there on the card, instead of taking cold damage, he is healing. If he didn't take damage, then he didn't do damage.
AZ does not breathe. There is no air at Absolute Zero, there is only liquid or solid.
AZ also cannot eat.
AZ cannot age.
AZ cannot bleed.
He can't see except by superpowers defying the laws of science.
AZ is arguably the most powerful super hero ever. He could float around in space with pressure suit that had no heating or oxygen. Given the nature of his body being almost completely solid he would likely survive outside a pressurized suit in space.
AZ is Immortal.
There is a fan-made alternate AZ on BGG that I love. His power is: play a card, AZ deals himself 1 cold and 1 fire damage. It is awesome. Faster set up, better one-shotting.
There's another I tinkered around with, it goes:
Destroy a Module. AZ deals himself either 3 Cold or Fire damage, Deal one target three of the other type. I liked it, it's a bit of a take on the DW Fixer card.
Is he actually at absolute zero? I just assumed it was a themed name for somebody that needs much much less heat then most people to survive.
I've been eager to test out the BGG AZ card. I think that it fixes what sucks about AZ, which is his slow set up and if he loses stuff you cant do anything until you have a basic set up in play. Agonizing if it happens a lot. One in my playgroup argues that it is simply too powerful. My counter is that it only affects his early game power/recovery, and thats only with speed. His mid and late game are unaffected, as what he does after set up remains unchanged. I really like AZ. I love that gameplay wise he is a baby of Iron Man and Mr Freeze turned into a living thermodynamic engine.
On your suggested power change, I dont think thats really needed. With DW Fixer it changes up his playstyle. Original Fixer will sit on a stance and tool and be content until there is a need for change, kind of sedate and slow imo. DW Fixer changes this into a much more dynamic play style, forcing you to adapt and change as the fight goes on for a benefit with a cost. AZ doesnt want to do that, as once his set up is all there he has much better options. That power only slows him down to getting to ideal AZ. Destruction is painful enough for him without him doing it to himself! This is all IMHO.
I have never gotten more than marginal use out of Thermal Shockwave, but I have had multiple games as AZ where he was highly effective. Usually my best card is Hoarfire closely followed by Frost-Bound Drain; either one of these is strong even with just one Module in play. I do see AZ get killed with alarming frequency, but I also see him be highly effective on a fairly regular basis (about half the time he at least contributes, and occasionally he's a rock star). Maybe you've just had terrible luck with him, as I have had with Mr. Fixer.
Hm. I've never found Tempest "boring", but I have heard a player decide that most heroes are too straightforward, and end up taking a shine to Bunker because he requires some actual thought to play. Likely your friend would eventually get to like some character if they tried a few more, but oh well.
Given that there's no hand limit this isn't really an issue.
"I'm starting to feel comic books lack realism."
"Master of Understatement: Level Up!"
--Two nearly-consecutive (in the other order) quotes from the webcomic "Grrl Power".
It seems like Focused Apertures are a part of it as well. Personally I'm less inclined to want thermal shockwave as I am focused apertures.
Good luck getting that opening hand. His point is still valid that over a quarter of the deck is literally unusable without modules out. Now of course its not very likely that you start with and go a few turns with only unplayable cards, but its pretty likely that you see several of them in your first couple turns. More likely than what you described here. This means your play options are very limited without modules in play.
Looking at the cards you can play without modules many of them basically expect that you have at least one in play as they are much better with and designed around them. This supports his statement that AZ strongly encourages you to build a setup.
Personally I think he really really really needs modules out, but after that he is all kinds of effective whith whatever else he has. Ronway is correct in that cards like impale can help in the mean time. Ironic is correct that there are a few more cards beyond modules that seem strongly encouraged.
I've used the BGG promo once, it went pretty smoothly. It didn't help with the fact that I couldn't find the fire module until the game was more than half over, but I think that it is promising.
I've had a number of games where I didn't get Thermal, Impale, Cold Snap or his damage one-shots till round 6 or later. I have terrible AZ luck. With the BGG Promo he's still cool, base AZ does a lot less with bad luck. With good luck you don't use your base power outside of getting your cards into play.
My group is debating that as part of AZ setup he gets to put one or possibly both of his modules into play. This would speed up his setup but still leave him vulnerable to equipment destruction. We find him just too slow to be effective most of the time. The majority of my goup does think that starting with both modules is probably a bit much, but we want to try it out.
Unless we're getting hammered out of the gate, I generally get the fire module out immediately so I can start doing some damage. Healing usually isn't a big concern until get near the single digits. You need the cold module for some of his more advanced shenanigans like Coolant Blast or Thermal Shockwave, but I find that I do best with AZ when I'm very aggressive with the cards I have in hand, rather than trying to play it safe until I get a huge combo out. Hitpoints are just another resource to be used, and since AZ has the most and strongest self-healing in the game, you should be very willing to take damage to deal damage.
Alternatively, you can use the Elemental Wrath promo. You lose the ability to self-heal except from one-shots or Shockwave, but you can start hitting hard immediately and are much more resistant to equipment destruction. I usually prefer the original, but Elemental Wrath is great fun and addresses a lot of the complaints in this thread.
Sorry for nabbing this little snip out of context, but Nightmist and Scholar would like to have a word with you
Appologies. Carry on.
What's unusable?
Frost-Bound Drain? It does 3 damage to a non-hero target, then AZ takes 3 fire. That's like using AZ's base power with Isothermic Transducer in play for 3 rounds. Sounds usable to me!
Hoarfire? Deals 2 targets 2 damage each, then AZ takes 2? That's like using the base power with Isothermic and Focused Apertures twice! Still usuable!
Thermal Shockwave? Deals 3 targets 1 damage, then take 3. Heck, even go for 1 target to take 1. That's just like using his base power while Isothermic is in play!
Focused Apertures? Even without a module, it'll boost Impale, Cold Snap, Fueled Freeze, Hoarfire, Frost-bound Drain, Thermal Shockwave, and Coolant Blast's damage. Still usable!
Coolant Blast? AZ just needs to take fire damage, Frost-bound Drain and Hoarfire will do that for him. If you have Focused Apetures in play, you will always be able to deal at least 1 point with it.
Cryo Chamber? It lowers the damage AZ will take when using Frost-bound Drain and Thermal Shockwave, sounds great to me when you lack that module!
Fueled Freeze? Has nothing to do with modules, just Ongoings.
Impale? It continues doing it's thing, with or without modules.
Cold Snap? Same as Impale, not reliant on modules in the least.
Sub-zero Atmosphere? I can't see the lack of a module bothering this card at all!
Glacial Structure? I can't see how drawing more cards would need a module.
Onboard Modular Installation? Hey look! It gets that module that you are missing!
Null-point Callibration Unit? It works perfectly fine without Isothermic. Paired with Focused Apertures/Cryo Chamber you will be able to use the base power to regain some extra hitpoints. With Thermal Shockwave, you can hit 2 targets and yourself with the cold, then take 2 fire, thus actually only netting 1 life loss, pair it with Cryo Chamber, you can now hit yourself for the 2 cold, deal the 2 targets a points, then take only 1 fire, thus gaining a net of one. Hoarfire would just cancel eachother out without bonuses.
Isothermic Transducer? Also works perfectly fine without Null-point! Thermal Shockwave will be able to freeze hell over. Frost-Bound Drain and Hoarfire will open up more damage oppurtunites. Cryo Chamber can be a nice boost in damage when nothing else is worth playing. Focused Apertures makes his base power to take 1 and deal 2.
Finally, I bet you were waiting for Modular Realignment, huh? Well it too doesn't need a modular in play. You may be thinking "well duh, it needs it in the trash", incorrect my kind sir or madam. It can also bring back the Cryo Chamber and Focused Apertures. Which you can then refer to my earlier statements as to why those can be ahndy without modules. Not only that, it also deals AZ fire damage, which can fuel that Coolant Blast.
Look at that, every card in his deck can actually still do things without modules in play! Even the modules certainly don't need the other in play to be usable. Now I may have skipped a card by accident, if I did, feel free to say which one! Then i'll gladly say what it can do without a module as well. You may be thinking to yourself "well they are better with the module in play!!" Sure they are! However, I am stating that they are not unusable without a module in play.
Just because they are better with them, doesn't automatically make the cards useless, now does it?
It certainly doens't encourage me to get this "one setup to work towards", as that sounds so boring. I much rather play heroes with what I got in hand, rather than have an end goal that may or may not be reached. Which is exactly how I play AZ with his current deck!
If you have a strong aversion for 1:1 damage conversions, AbZero will never be for you. High Risk/Reward characters like ABZ rarely will be effective when played conservativley. It just isn't their strong suite. AbZero is an extreme example of that.
****
It's hard to do, but next time you play him, imagine he has infinite health, just as an experiment. Play him as if he had infinite health (until he dies) a few times, and see if that changes the way you look at some of his cards. It personally has helped me play him more consistently. Yes, he will get incapped. Maybe he wont survive to finish most games. But he will have done his share at least while he was in play (instead of doing nothing for turns on end waiting for your setup to come through), and you will also finally realise that AbZero's incapp abilities are *Very* good, and that he will be usefull even from beyond the frozen grave.
I don't think so? If he was, I always assumed that achieving absolute zero would cause a hyperdense, black hole-like scenario. You know, with the electrons not moving, being actually adherent to the protons (since they wouldn't be orbiting at super fast speeds anymore at 0K), and thus removing any empty space within an atom.
If it is, that would give me some insight as to how their alternate universe works at least, lol.
Thats an interesting idea. I think that some else, long ago mentioned doing Set-up instructions for heroes like this.
Would the player still start with 4 cards in hand? You could just as easily say he starts with a module in hand, but that isn't as good since you are trying for a faster build in addition to dodging poor luck.
Nightmist has strong healing in the form of Mist-fueled Recovery, but she only has two copies of that. She's got the Starshield and Master of Magic, but those aren't super-reliable sources of healing like Scholar and AZ have. More spike healing, but much less reliable.
Scholar, on the other hand, has very reliable healing but doesn't have the same sort of regenerative power that AZ does. Unless he's got 3x Solid to Liquid out, he really can't compete with AZ on heal volume. But with 3x Solid to Liquid he's not going to be able to do much else, whereas AZ can still Cold Snap and Impale while spam-healing himself. More reliable, but weaker heals.
So I stand by my statement that AZ has the most strong self-healing in the game.
How are two different effects which can go off once per turn without costing you any of your damage output "unreliable"?
"Is it a bird?"
"Is it a plane?"
"No... it's ironic!"
Yes, the player would still start with 4 cards in hand.
If you're talking about AZ, he's less reliable than Scholar because you actually need NPCU (and sometimes IT+FA) to heal yourself, while Scholar always has his base power. If you're talking about Nightmist, both Master of Magic and Starshield are dependent on the cards you have in hand and your ability to play or discard them, and there's only two of each in her deck. It may be more prudent to keep junk cards in hand for an Amulet redirect rather than discard for Starshield, and MoM doesn't always have a net gain of HP since the majority of her spells damage you by an amount different from their own printed magic-number.
AZ has great healing because it's more volume than Scholar but more reliable than Nightmist, and he can still deal damage when he's using his power purely for healing.
Ill say the same thing about 'always playing the same cards' for AbZ i've learned for the rest of the heroes.
Don't play the game looking for an expectation of what to play from your hand. Play the hand you have. You'll find much more enjoyment if you are looking to maximize what you have in hand then worrying about what is coming up and looking for what might be, just making the best use out of what you have. Don't be afraid to 'screw up' your setup by feeding it to Unity or tossing around other things. Sure you may not be 'the optimal use' but you'll be having a lot more fun.
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
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The most important card for AZ to have in play is Twist the Ether.
I was thinking any card that increases AZ's damage.
Why just increase, when you can increase, decrease and change from fire to cold at the whim of someone you sincerely hope is on your side.
Because, I don't tend to care about having my damage type changed. I like being dealt tons of fire! And since only Hoarfire and Modular Realignment are the only ones that have AZ deal himself cold damage, not that big of a deal too me. So any damage increase for me is just as good!
Edit: Added in the card I forgot for a bit.
*coughModularRealignmentcough*
"I'm starting to feel comic books lack realism."
"Master of Understatement: Level Up!"
--Two nearly-consecutive (in the other order) quotes from the webcomic "Grrl Power".
But that whole litany of cards that do 1 for 1, you can make that 3 for 1, or 2 for 0, or so on. Having Twist without aperatures is a drastic improvement, having it when you are built up let you pull all kinds of shenanigans, increased nuking and healing and everything.
The insanity just builds with every card you play.
Yeah, Twist The Aether is a boss card for AZ. Enough so that I play focused aperatures as letting him either increase or decrease any damage he does.
"Is it a bird?"
"Is it a plane?"
"No... it's ironic!"
Two words... Imbued Fire.
...kills AZ faster.
Yeah but he'll look like a badass while he goes out.
Art stuff:
http://garbagelatrash.tumblr.com
http://boxwoodsen.deviantart.com
Charbroiled ice cube?
Not entirely true, at least not in my case. If you use Thermal Shockwave, you are no longer doing cold damage. Meaning any damage you do is not becoming a factor in the damage you will recieve when using Thermal Shockwave. Unless there are any other damage increases, AZ only has to take 1 fire damage from using it.
Having Cryo Chamber in play would lower the damage AZ takes from his one-shots. Leaving Frost-bound Drain and his base power would do the same damage, while Hoarfire and Modular Realignment would actually do just 2 extra points of damage that one would usually take. Thermal Shockwave would not have any backlash damage at all.
Ronway, lynkfox, Foote, have already said what I'd have to say, so I will just, as I like too, talk about myself.
If I look at my own history with Sentinels of the Multiverse's heroes, I can tell you that heroes change the more you play them.
I, too, at first, was obsessed with AZ's modules. Or Bunker's modes and Omnicannon. Or Nightmist's talisman. Or elemental forms, or whatever you can imagine. Or with Mr Fixer's tools and styles. I was especially concerned with heroes who take damage to do their thing.
I had this mindset (I still have it with new games) that tells you, in "deck" games, that if you have in your deck cards that give you an advantage in specific circumstances, you have to wait for this card, you have to use it. I didn't want to hurt AZ until I had the modules who would help me undo the damage - because they were there in the deck and I knew it. Bunker's modes were there in the deck - so I was ready to wait to have them and use them rather than act now, because I felt like if I was wasting his special abilities. Nightmist spent rounds after rounds waiting for her Talisman because it felt subpar to waste HPs while I had this card somewhere I could use to redirect them. This was my problem - I finally understood it recently while playing another game, an online CCG - and by the way, as soon as I understood this, without changing my decks, I stopped losing and became a very strong opponent (even stronger now that my decks are remade...)
This is not how heroes work. They all have one or more big signature, epic moves or set-ups, and they all have their basic day-to-day schticks. When you can go epic, you do. When you can not, you just play according to the not-so-epic-but-incredibly-effective "common" cards/tactics you have in hand, and try to find the best way to use them. For some heroes (in fact, many of them), their basic "tactical identity" is being hurt and go down fast while doing something useful. For others, it's to do reliable damage - but they are an exception, in a way : SotM is built around the assumption, at least it's what I conclude after a year of daily games, that HPs are meant to be used as ressource, not something you try to protect, that doing something is better than doing nothing, and that incap heroes have the advantage of being more reliable that a card draw.
I don't care about big moves anymore. I play them all like I play Haka : I don't wait for the rare Mana card. Haka is built to be effective without it, and so this is a rare card, but that's the mindset to have. In fact, AZ big setup is easier to get than Haka's. It's one of the variables you could measure heroes upon : on one hand heroes with a very rare epic setup/move, but very effective basic moves (Ra, Haka, for instance), on the other heroes with an easier to get epic setup or move and less efficient basics (like AZ and friends)
Don't let your analyze of a hero's deck and abilities fool you. Don't let your opinions limit your gameplay. Yes, sometimes, you'll have a hand, with AZ, that let's you do nothing useful but draw two cards this round. It happens. It happens with all heroes, by the way, but those who have an attack base power hide it easily. Very often, you'll have something you can do, and then DON'T wait. Not acting when you can hurts you and the team MORE than doing something, however little it may seem, or however unexpected it may seem.
There is a bunch of misunderstood heroes in this game : AZ, Bunker, Expatriette, Fixer are the most talked about. There was recently something about Parse too (even if while Parse was criticized for being subpar here, she was described as overpowered on BGG). Fanatic is sometimes the topic of this kind of dicussion, too, or Chrono-Ranger. I am always surprised to see that Nightmist is not part of this band, as playing her without her talisman is not obvious. But the point is that these heroes are not "weaker" - they all have a kind of gameplay that is not obvious, and sometimes is counter-intuitive. Players build on opinion about what they should do, and judge them according to it, rather than tossing their opinion away and trying to play them differently, trying to find the way they do play rather than the way they think they should play.
Rarely do people listen to this advice, but I'll keep giving it : if you find a hero doesn't work well, stop seeing the hero as responsible. Don't try to change the hero - change the way you play him or her. For Blade's sake, even if you think you play a hero well and know everything about him, change the way you play it often ! I am still discovering unexpected things in each and every deck. And I am still baffled at how limited by preconceptions heroes like Legacy or Ra are in most people minds. Or, to take your example, find Tempest boring to play - probably because they read some of his cards and thought they were too dangerous or not useful enough to think about them twice. I am just learning how to play Tempest better right now, by the way.
Of course, it depends also on how often, and with who you can play. It's difficult to experiment when playing with others, and rarely, because the team relies on you and not contributing fast and in a visible way is seen badly. It's easier to "learn" or "unlearn" some heroes if you play solo a lot. Maybe we should rate heroes according to this scale, rather than complexity : which of them are good for solo, frequent games, which are better to use when you play less frequently and in a multiplayer game. Not they are more powerful, but because they shine often without asking for too much training.
Ooops, I did it gain. My apologies for the wall of text and it's old zen master teaching students style.
Any view of things that is not strange is false - Neil Gaiman
I can second Sound of Trees, I used to hate Ra, he was boring. Then I started caring less about getting his best stuff into play and started using stuff that I would discard mentally more. Now my favorite Ra cards are Flesh of the Sun God and Excavation. (so many environments become quite nice when you stack them full of cards you want)
I played Bunker a few times under a personal challenge to not use a mode card. Found out I liked him a lot more than I thought. He does quite well that way, surprisingly.
I have still, to this very day, never played Excavation. You're a brave man
Hmmm... I'm trying to think if there is a single card that I have never played and used the effect on it. I think the ones I have used the least are Mass Levitiation, Astral Premonition, Enduring Intercession, and Wrathful Gaze. I have used them though... Wrathful Gaze I even managed to use every single round in one game (4 round game against Ambuscade, it even finished him!).
Woo! Used every card in the game!
A friend of mine helped us destroy Akash'bhuta by playing Excavation. We were playing on advanced, and the environment deck was 1 card away from running out and flipping. And we were all low enough on health that Akash'bhuta's damage on her flip side would have been nasty.
Excavation for 3 cards gave us the turn we needed to clear out her limbs and go in for the kill.
Ah! Delaying Advanced Akash from getting to her tender angry insides and flipping. Brilliant. I'll have to try this.
Yous guys. So smart sometimes I swear.
I love it in Atlantis, it seems like every game we play there there are a few cards you don't want, and others you are glad to see, just cycle the good ones back in.
Mars Base, Primalis, Silver Gulch, Block, Discord, all of them seem to have cards worth putting back in.
And yeah, Akash. You can slow her down drastically.
You are a wise one, SoundOfTrees. That encapsulates my feelings about so many heroes so well.
The Scholar was a big one for me. I used to think Flesh to Iron was so superior to his other forms. Then I was enlightened as to entirely new ways to play, which have shaped my play with him tremendously! There's rarely a "best" card in any game. Lots of options and risk/reward options abound, and that's what makes the game great!
The LEE Engine!
heh. i remeber when flesh to iron was 2 card discard to keep in play
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
heh. i remeber when flesh to iron was 2 card discard to keep in play
Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki
http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!
PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!
Oh irony, thy name is double posting when talking about double discarding
Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all
I love Excavation when it turns up late game, but in most games it's useless until Ra's 4th turn, and not very useful even then, as few games go long enough for the environment to loop. Definitely try to try it with Akash though. Also with Rook City Wraith.
"I'm starting to feel comic books lack realism."
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--Two nearly-consecutive (in the other order) quotes from the webcomic "Grrl Power".
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