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Definitive Edition

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Ulf316
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Right and the very people you called out may very well also "blink twice" when it's done for other games.

I might also suggest that the level of investment is different when you have people who gave GtG hundreds for their game, had over a year late kickstarter, etc etc. Getting a 10th anniversary Notre Dame with the same ruleset, especially when you paid 40 for the first edition, invokes a different emotional response than having a 10th anniversary addition with a ruleset you "shouldn't play without" after dropping 300+ on Sentinels.

In short, there's rational reasons for the different levels of concern.

Jeysie
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Ulf316 wrote:
I might also suggest that the level of investment is different when you have people who gave GtG hundreds for their game, had over a year late kickstarter, etc etc.

Dude, you're talking to someone who literally did just spend hundreds to buy all of physical Sentinels last year, so, don't speak for me, if you don't mind.

I just don't see why I should get upset over Sentinels having a single updated version of a 10 year old game when there are any number of tabletop games I own or have played with multiple editions. Why does GTG have less right to do that? Especially when they have valid, solid reasons for doing it that aren't just "more money".

 


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

TheOneWaaagh
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Do folks normally complain about new versions of products (like smart phones, video game consoles, RPG rule sets, cars), or just new board game versions? New versions are always touted as being better than the previous version since they are trying to sell a product. New versions do not invalidate your existing purchase and you are not being forced to "upgrade".

I assume that when most people hear of a new version of a product they already own, they simply do some research and evaluate the new version to see if it's worth purchasing or not.

Providing helpful feedback or constructive criticism to help improve the new version for everybody is useful/encouraged. Complaining just about the existence of the new version is not very helpful and seems to be a waste of everyone's time.

Ulf316
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I'm not speaking for you. The point you quoted is in reference to people being upset about new editions, and my supposition that there's a difference in intensity between a 2nd edition of a 40 dollar game vs a 300 dollar game with very late kickstarter deliveries (i.e. intensity of investment and lingering ill will). I'm actually addressing your "I don't know why people are so upset about this but not upset about X game 4th edition...", not speaking FOR you. Further, no one is telling you to be upset. Look which side is doing the attacking. Has anyone said "If you are excited for this you are wrong" in this forum? No. You called out individuals and then tried to make them look like hypocrites for not being enraged by X 4th edition but being upset about this release.

To be 100% clear: You are welcome to feel however you like, I certainly wish I could feel about this as you do, AND the people who are concerned or who shared that the messaging hit them negatively, are not hypocrites or bad people... they are giving constructive feedback on the product messaging which GtG can use or not as they see fit.
 

 

Jeysie
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Ulf316 wrote:
Look which side is doing the attacking.

The side which accuses GTG of a cash grab for doing something every other game company regularly does, to address things about the game both GTG and other people genuinely thought were issues, is definitely the side doing the attacking.

Ulf316 wrote:
they are giving constructive feedback on the product messaging

The people in this thread giving polite feedback on what they do and don't like about the changes are giving constructive feedback.

"The mere fact that this exists is a cash grab" is objectively not in any way, shape, or form, actually constructive feedback.


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

Godai
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An analogy: Finer Than Fashion makes a wonderful clothing line. For a decade, they have made lovely clothes that everyone buys. Lots of accessories, pants, shirts, dresses, even vests. After a decade of this, they say they are done making new clothes. But they have looked at their back catalog, and are not happy with the colors and sewing in a few areas. So they are going to rerelease their entire catalog, taking all the tips and tricks they learned over the last decade, to improve their clothes. 
 

oh, and as an added bonus, the clothes will have extra pockets. 
 

Your closet is still full of Finer than Fashion clothing. It all still fits, it all looks good, you are fine with the imperfections that are there. You don't need to buy the same clothes again, just to get a few more pockets. If you WANT to, great. But you don't HAVE to.

End scene. 

Ulf316
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No one told you that you were wrong for your feelings or opinion. You are doing exactly that. You are painting people as hypocrites. I gave you real answers why perhaps this decision and it's messaging might be different than what "every other game company regularly does" but you don't want to hear or explore that. You are right, they are wrong.

Jeysie
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Ulf316: Is there a reason why you're acting like I'm the only one telling you these things when there's actually multiple people in this thread telling you the same things I am?


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

fjur
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There are obviously strong, differeing opinions about this, but it seems to me that neither side is ever going to stand down or convinve the other that they're right. It's just stubborn human nature. So why don't we all just agree to disagree, hmm?

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Godai
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I just made two posts. A Hooray Post and a Boooo Post. Go there, and share your joy and/or misery. Peace!

Jeysie
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fjur wrote:
So why don't we all just agree to disagree, hmm?

The forum rules are pretty clear that you are not allowed to accuse others of malice, which was the core of my issue here was some folks accusing GTG of malice.

I actually don't care if people simply aren't interested or aren't happy with some of the new content so long as they're not throwing around accusations of GTG being malicious by doing this when there's little evidence to back that up.

(I think in general there's a lot of people--especially gamers unfortunately--who need to understand the very important difference between disagreement and being an unconstructive jerk in how you disagree. It's always the latter I actually take issue with on things like this.)


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

illusive622
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Should I wait to buy my son all the previous expansions? Is the real question. Also, i cannot order out of the store at GTG


I love these games!

Jeysie
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illusive622: Depends on how soon you/they want to play it. This new set of expansions isn't going to be completed for the next six years, which is... a bit of a wait.

And the existing version of the game definitely is enjoyable as-is, it's why we're all here after all. :)


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

illusive622
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I was scornful and skeptical at first too. Waiting for Sentinels of Earth Prime too. Looking to 3rd party expansions to suffice the urge for new content. Then I did my research and talked to all my family members and friends that are die hard for this game. It's like a new multiverse. New storyline, new art with some of the same heroes, villains and environments (a little different). Maybe different variants... it's not unheard of to reboot a comic character. I'm newly excited about throwing my moneys at new and improved. Especially now I'll be able to have two of each base character. Ooo... do the previous variants still crossover into the new version of the old character? Curious and excited. 


I love these games!

Jeysie
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Also realizing I got distracted from mentioning that if people are curious for a wider idea of the cards: https://old.reddit.com/r/sentinelsmultiverse/comments/l7g2ls/definitive_...


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

illusive622
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You are too right. However, I'm attempting to buy everything he doesn't have (guise is his favorite and out of stock) off of the GTG store. However, it doesn't give any delivery options, so I cannot complete my purchase. 


I love these games!

dpt
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I believe they stopped their regular printings of previous content in anticipation of this announcement. So it's not surprising Guise is out of stock; they probably won't reprint him. I would look online, maybe on the secondary market.

MindWanderer
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There's something severely screwed up with the online store right now, where no delivery options exist for anything.  GtG has been informed but I'm not aware of a response yet.


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ViolentSilence
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TheOneWaaagh wrote:
Do folks normally complain about new versions of products (like smart phones, video game consoles, RPG rule sets, cars), or just new board game versions? New versions are always touted as being better than the previous version since they are trying to sell a product. New versions do not invalidate your existing purchase and you are not being forced to "upgrade".

You can't really compare one to another - you're talking about hardware, on items that have a limited shelf-life. Boardgames have a very different rate of decay. It's haerd even to compare it software as yes, people do get annoyed at games companies putting out updates when they could just put out upgraded data packs instead. Almost every EA sports game (and the Sims) have people complaining when new versions arrive and they have to begin the process of buying everything again.

As for RPGs, you don't need to rebuy every book. For a lot of people you only need to have the core books, the supplemental expansions are very much a take or leave prospect, and often the lore parts can easily be re-used if you have them anyway. People are trying to compare this to Fantasy Flight updating a game, but look at how they handled Descent and XWing - they made sure there were things available for the players to move on to the new versions, they didn't essentially go "If you want to play the latest version, have fun rebuying lots of content you already own", and that's a huge risk here with how the messaging is coming across.

As for the arrogant and condescending

Quote:
Providing helpful feedback or constructive criticism to help improve the new version for everybody is useful/encouraged. Complaining just about the existence of the new version is not very helpful and seems to be a waste of everyone's time.

That is not what is going on here - asking why there isn't more of an effort to find a way for existing players to upgrade isn't complaining about the existence of the game, it's asking for people who have cared for and supported the game for a long time to be treated with some degree of consideration. As for construcive criticism, you may have noticed a number of people calling out the issues of inconsistent artwork (in the deliberate attempt to cover different eras), but it seems far too late in the process for that fair commentary to make a difference. It seems like you define constructive as things you agree with...
ViolentSilence
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illusive622 wrote:
It's not unheard of to reboot a comic character

Slightly off-topic, I'm trying to figure out where reboots lie in the pantheons of cash grabs - more often than not, they're driven by the desire to just sell something which is easier to market. Even something as creatively rich as the Planet of The Apes reboot, you have to admit that the branding is a huge factor in how it got funding. There seems to be an incredibly cowardly approach to genre shows/movies in the modern era, relying upon existing IPs instead of taking a risk on a new idea that could be more meaningful.

My list of creative industry cash grabs is something like - sequels, prequels, reboots, reimaginings, adaptations, shared universes, greatest hits albums, cover albums, accoustic albums, themed deckbuilders, director's cuts, special editions, variant covers in comic books... you can probably find a counter example for each of those that means you shouldn't ban them outright, but for the most part, they exist because on some level they're cheaper and/or easier than taking a risk on something original. I'm actually tired of the MCU as it just feels so intellectually and emotionally empty.

I'm not calling the definitive edition a cash grab - I have mixed feelings on it because I can see why it's a good idea to do it, but at the same time I just wish more was being done for the loyal fanbase. This post is mostly based on my amusement that we're now treating reboots as something normal and good which they really aren't for the most part. DC have done a few attempts to reset their universe now instead of trying to invest innew characters and Marvel is not so different

A product I would sooner have seen would be intro packs for places like convention libraries or boardgame cafes - 2 of the simpler villains (in terms of rule overheads rather than difficulty), 2 of the simpler enviroments and a fairly balanced set of 6 heroes, so that people could get a flavour of the game without being confronted with trying to pick those parts out of the massive selection the game has. It's maybe counter-intuitive, but while a big selection is great for experienced players, for newbies it can be really overwhelming. Not sure though that a big enough print run for this sampler pack could be justified, but I feel like it's something that bigger/more sprawling titles might want to consider if the board game cafe model grows after COVID

Trajector
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Jeysie wrote:
Also realizing I got distracted from mentioning that if people are curious for a wider idea of the cards: https://old.reddit.com/r/sentinelsmultiverse/comments/l7g2ls/definitive_...

Woah, thanks for posting this. There are some surprisingly major changes to the game revealed here! I see some big alterations to how Tachyon, Ra, Fanatic, Wraith, Bunker, Wagner Mars Base, and Atlantis work.

One thing I noticed is that hero character cards are a different size than their decks. That means I can't stack them together any more, for storage or when handing them out to players...I guess the idea must be to keep all the variants for a character cards in a different place than their deck. It feels a little less modular -- but, on the other hand, we get to see more of the artwork. I laughed to see the reappearance of "Take that, Soviet slob!"

The one thing I think is a little disappointing is that the clarification of game language came at the expense of adding in more jargon to the card texts. I see a lot more specialized terms like "summon," "salvage," and "discover." I understand the motivation to do that, but it does mean that we'll have more explanation to do with new players. It used to be a couple key concepts, and then "you do what the card says!" Admittedly there was always in-game clarification, and it sometimes made for verbose cards, but for teaching I liked having the rules written more on the game itself than in a booklet.

I got a real kick out of the fact that Tempest still has the same quote on Ball Lightning. Geez, these guys really don't *get* how to write Tempest, do they? :)

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ViolentSilence wrote:

As for the arrogant and condescending
Quote:

Providing helpful feedback or constructive criticism to help improve the new version for everybody is useful/encouraged. Complaining just about the existence of the new version is not very helpful and seems to be a waste of everyone's time.

That is not what is going on here - asking why there isn't more of an effort to find a way for existing players to upgrade isn't complaining about the existence of the game, it's asking for people who have cared for and supported the game for a long time to be treated with some degree of consideration. As for construcive criticism, you may have noticed a number of people calling out the issues of inconsistent artwork (in the deliberate attempt to cover different eras), but it seems far too late in the process for that fair commentary to make a difference. It seems like you define constructive as things you agree with...

Wow, thank you so much for interpreting my non-existent tone and for telling me how I define constructive. I really appreciate it. And since you may need help with this, my previous two sentences are sarcasm. Feedback relating to font sizes/tonal art dissonance is useful. Complaining about the existence of the new edition is not. I'm not saying people can't make that complaint, just that's it's not helpful to anyone (well maybe to the complainer for cathartic reasons). But since you say the real issue is supporters not being treated with consideration, let's focus on that.

What exactly should that consideration look like or entail? Other board games may create some sort of upgrade kit for folks but that's not really an option here since it looks like all of the card art is new. So you can't have a partial upgrade kit when the vast majority of the components are brand new. The best they could do would be some conversion rules to make the old stuff work with the new stuff (which I believe Paul has stated will happen).

So what other options are there to show consideration? Maybe a loyalty discount or something. But how would that work? Who gets the discount? People who have bought everything? What about people who only own half of the expansions? How would you verify it?

Any other ideas? Please feel free to let GTG know what kind of consideration they should be providing so long term supporters no longer feel outraged by their audacity to create an awesome new product for everyone to enjoy.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. My apologies for any snarkiness. I hope you and all GTG fans have a great day.

Jeysie
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Trajector wrote:
Woah, thanks for posting this. There are some surprisingly major changes to the game revealed here! I see some big alterations to how Tachyon, Ra, Fanatic, Wraith, Bunker, Wagner Mars Base, and Atlantis work.

Yeah.

To lean back and address ViolentSilence, one reason why I get irritated at "cash grab" comments or the claim GTG isn't considering existing fans is that a lot of the changes being made directly address things existing fans have griped about. Bunker feeling weak. AZ needing some card acceleration. Drake's Pipes being an oft-dismissed instrument. Devastating Aurora being overwhelmingly one of the most punishing cards in the game. Etc.

How is giving people changes they've repeatedly said they wish existed or addressing things people have often felt are flaws a bad thing?


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

MindWanderer
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There aren't many special words, and I personally like them.  They're not hard at all, and they save a lot of text and reading.  Nothing like, say, Magic: the Gathering.

I suggested in proofreading that they might want to "correctly" attribute that quote to Tempersonation, but they didn't bite.


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fjur
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I suppose that adding more rules to save card room and minimize reading is a reasonable choice, but I also think that one of the great things about 1st Ed. SotM is it's rules-lightness.

About Ball Lightning: That's probably because no one who doesn't have Biomancer or listens to The Letters Page would know who Tempersonation is. [Spoilers?]


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Doesn't stop there from being references to Ammit (who, like Tempersonation, had its own card in EE) and The Adhesivist.  And you can roughly guess who Tempersonation is from the name.


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fjur
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True. I suppose it could be justified because it's retcon, maybe. . .


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Reminder: If the thread doesn't stay cool, we'll lock it. We're doing so well -- let's not ruin it? Please? :-(


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TheOneWaaagh wrote:
Wow, thank you so much for interpreting my non-existent tone and for telling me how I define constructive. I really appreciate it. And since you may need help with this, my previous two sentences are sarcasm. Feedback relating to font sizes/tonal art dissonance is useful. Complaining about the existence of the new edition is not. I'm not saying people can't make that complaint, just that's it's not helpful to anyone (well maybe to the complainer for cathartic reasons). But since you say the real issue is supporters not being treated with consideration, let's focus on that.

Your tone is not non-existent. You should perhaps think about how you come across to others when you write something dismissive? Seriously, that's just generally good advice. It's not a good look when pointed out that you come across arrogant and condescending to then write "since you may need help with this". Don't get angry when other people point out your obvious faults and failings.

TheOneWaaagh wrote:
What exactly should that consideration look like or entail? Other board games may create some sort of upgrade kit for folks but that's not really an option here since it looks like all of the card art is new. So you can't have a partial upgrade kit when the vast majority of the components are brand new. The best they could do would be some conversion rules to make the old stuff work with the new stuff (which I believe Paul has stated will happen).

New card art is a production choice. Old art could be reused, and that is not difficult in the age of computers, so if people wanted upgrades for cards being replaced, the card art from the old version could be used in their stead, and therefore mesh more neatly with existing decks. If changes are minor wording tweaks and those changes can be addressed in a rules update, then only a limited number of cards could be replaced meaning people only need to buy x cards ouf of the 15/25/40 for affected decks, and an upgrade kit would use significantly less cards than a new game, and not need to come in a box with any artwork or complex printing requirements of its own. There are also options of paste ups via pdf. Not to mention that there are also timing questions that don't appear to have been considered, such as it hitting the market at a fairly similar time to the Arcane Wonders title, and it being not that long since the previous ultimate edition was published, though there wouldn't be much of an option there beyond waiting, and I can speculate why financially that may not have been an option. However, it's fairly obvious why it's going to jar with some people vs how it would look if they were putting out say an updated and refined version of Compounded, a game that has had no updates for a good few years now (and honestly I feel like it does everything Catan does, but better, so deserves an update and new push, even though I own everything for that too)

But well done on continuing the sneering tone, if you were genuine in apologising for your sarkiness, you might have thought to edit your post and remove it instead of going combative again? Just a thought...

TheJeysie - I wasn't calling it a cash grab, and I get why people get angry at it being labelled as such, I was just pointing out that trying to defend it by saying superheroes get rebooted was counterproductive because a lot of the reboots ARE cash grabs (and largely creatively defunct). The comics are basically a sign of having no faith in launching new heroes, so keep trying to do the definitive version of what happened. The movies are pretty much of the same ilk, they're just remixes in a different medium. I used to be a much bigger movie fan, but it's hard to get any enthusiasm now when more emphasis is put on SFX tent-poles. Ideally the release balance would be 60% empty popcorn films (I do enjoy those from time to time) with the remaining 40% a mix of quirky, worthy, original films as it seems harder each year to find something genuinely new. I'd say it feels like the current slate of releases is about 95% popcorn (and that's just a bad diet). I also worry about TV going the same way with so many franchise TV shows being made not because they have anything interesting to say or do, but because they know the audience is there (though at least we have the comedy value of trying to work out how many Game Of Thrones TV series start and finish before the 6th book gets published!). It was somewhat of a tangent, just riffing on reboots being a bad idea

Jeysie
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ViolentSilence wrote:
New card art is a production choice. Old art could be reused, and that is not difficult in the age of computers, so if people wanted upgrades for cards being replaced, the card art from the old version could be used in their stead, and therefore mesh more neatly with existing decks.

The card art isn't being reused because Adam's unhappiness with the old art was one of the major drivers to make a new edition.

The card list also isn't precisely one to one. Some cards have been removed, others have been split into two cards. Not sure if you saw the preview list I posted, but it's worth perusing to get an idea of the changes.


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

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Just because art isn't being reused, doesn't mean that it can't. It's not the same situation as if a company was reskinning a game because they lost the licence (and I think that would be a fascinating question to see what would happen if either GW decided to straight up reprint BloodBowl Team Manager, Forbidden Stars or Death Angel, or if FFG decide to release a rethemed version since mechanics can't be copywritten, and while FFG designed the games, the art was all GW)

I'm not saying the changes are one to one - I'm saying that if you have a 40 card deck, and the changes to say 31 of them are largely cosmetic and covered by the rules update, then the remaining 9 cards that are substantially changed/removed/added is an easier number to have to rebuy and integrate. If say Devastating Aura was nerfed, you'd only need to replace those copies of the card if it used the original artwork, not the whole deck. Now, we know that some heroes are getting massive redesigns, so those are unavoidable, but for the remainder, only having to buy a fraction of the deck would make the changes easier for existing players to swallow the costs for

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Why don't y'all just wait and see exactly how much of each deck is changed before continuing this argument? So much of this heat is based on pure speculation.


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Iv written and deleted a few posts at this point. but im getting a bit more agitated as I read stuff across multiple platforms here. 

DE is not targeted to or marketed at long time sotm players. its a new jumping in point for fans who have found the multiverse via letters page and the rpg, and with that new jumping on point are brand new art and story tie ins (to gel with the growing world from the letters page) and a gameplay overhaul while they were at it. If you feel such a compulsion to buy a game thats not exactly targeted to you, making you upset over what you precieve as a "cash grab" (i wont even get started on how trash and lazy that insult is), then there is a serious need for a reevaulation of your spending habits. 

Also, do you really think gtg sits around in meetings that amount to "you know, a simple card upgrade packs would be really easy to do. lets just not do that super simple thing just to piss folks off"? A bit of perspective here would go a long way my friends. If it was actually that simple, it would probably be happening. If its not happening, occams razor is your friend. the simple explaination is that its just not possible, and that the changes are far more different and extensive than your super heroic leaps of assumption are seeing. Like, you fully understand that GtG is going to do themselvs a pretty signifigant diservice by releasing a conversion rubrik thats going to, by nessesity, be a clunky bandaid for a non-existant problem just becuase they care what people are saying right?

 

I'v played SotM from the first day that small square box hit its first retail shelf. I'm as OG as you're gonna find. And I'm still not owed, or entitled to, special treatment or consideration when it comes to any future Sentinel based product. And thats ok. I have a 10 year old game that I still play extensivly which has not grown old or stale. I got my moneys worth, and then some. Sure im disapointed that DE is not a product for me. The RPG isn't either and that has SO much great story and character stuff in the multiverse that I wont get to see. That new Sentinel board game from Launius isn't for me either. But all of that is still OK. Because it all brings new people into the community and into this really engaging world that Adam and Christopher have built for us to all share in. It's not about me. It's not about you. All the negativity im seeing is so drenched in entitlment and selfishness that I can no longer not say my piece. 

 

If you're a long time SotM vet on the fence about the product, just don't buy it. You really don't need it. This isn't being made for you or me. Try it out when you can, and make your decision later after you see if this is something you actually want based on the new art and narrative based tie ins. But if your'e new to the game, love the podcast, and into the world building but too intimidated by a 10 year old game with a million expansions and mini expansions in various stages of print, then this will be the product for you that will last you years to come. 

TheOneWaaagh
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ViolentSilence wrote:

Your tone is not non-existent.

My tone was definitely intended as neutral. Can you please explain how "Providing helpful feedback or constructive criticism to help improve the new version for everybody is useful/encouraged. Complaining just about the existence of the new version is not very helpful and seems to be a waste of everyone's time." is arrogant and condescending? I can sort of see the case for it being called dismissive, since it is dismissing a very particular kind of complaint. Should I have added "In my opinion" or "I think that" to the beginning of those statements to soften the tone or something? Help me understand cause I just don't get it.

ViolentSilence wrote:

You should perhaps think about how you come across to others when you write something dismissive? Seriously, that's just generally good advice. It's not a good look when pointed out that you come across arrogant and condescending to then write "since you may need help with this". Don't get angry when other people point out your obvious faults and failings.

I wrote that as an obvious jab but now I wonder if there's some truth to it. You seem to read way more into things than what's actually there. I didn't get angry. I did get a bit annoyed when you put words in my mouth with saying that I only define constructive as things I agree with. I have no idea how you got that idea from anything I said in my initial post.

ViolentSilence wrote:

But well done on continuing the sneering tone, if you were genuine in apologising for your sarkiness, you might have thought to edit your post and remove it instead of going combative again? Just a thought...

Maybe you should have taken your own advice and edited your initial post instead of going combative right off the bat. Just a thought...I mean seriously, if you removed like two sentences from your initial post, it would have been perfectly reasonable and we wouldn't be here trading petty passive aggressive insults.

To everyone else, I apologize for going off topic and potentially derailing the thread. I should know better than to argue on the internet, but the instinct to defend oneself is difficult to overcome. I will refrain from any further posting on this matter.

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This really is a divisive topic and I am somewhat of two minds.

  • The art is jarring upon first look but I think it will grow on us
  • For the thought that this is for new people and fans, I think this is not quite right as this is not an update of terms and art. There are complete reworks of many of the heroes and villains, new scenario modes, and new content. This seems like a mix of stream lining for new gamers but telling old fans that everything has been improved upon and thus should be purchased. This does not feel like an update version as there is a lot of new content mixed in.
  • As for this being released 10 years after the original, it still does not quite feel that way as most of us received the last content 2.5 years ago with it being called the finale of the universe and completion of the game. The cards are barely broken in and the entire game is put on cycle to be completely redone from scratch. For some, this is an exciting update. For others, this can feel like a cash grab as they just completed the collection to find that the entire run is starting over again with enough new content to trigger FOMO. It is a hard spot for fans.
  • My biggest concern might be the box, it looks terrible for organizing the amount of content in this edition XD

Will be interesting to see all of the news in the next few months to see where this goes.

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Here is Christopher and Adam talking about the DE https://theletterspage.libsyn.com/episode-165-sentinels-of-the-multivers...


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TheOneWaagh wrote:
My tone was definitely intended as neutral. Can you please explain how "Providing helpful feedback or constructive criticism to help improve the new version for everybody is useful/encouraged. Complaining just about the existence of the new version is not very helpful and seems to be a waste of everyone's time." is arrogant and condescending? I can sort of see the case for it being called dismissive, since it is dismissing a very particular kind of complaint. Should I have added "In my opinion" or "I think that" to the beginning of those statements to soften the tone or something? Help me understand cause I just don't get it.

How you intended it isn't how it comes across, and in context with the illiterate analogies you posted it makes it clear you failed to understand what people are saying. The part in bold is where it becomes arrogant and condescending as you project your failure to understand on to people who have legitimate reservations. To believe otherwise just shows where you're interpreting other people's complaints and describing them in a way that fails to agree with reality - NO ONE has posted simply because the new version exists, but because of the way the launch is handled, what it represents for their collections etc. That should be obvious for someone who has more than merely affectations of intelligence.

In short - people would like some way to bring their versions in line with the new version including the heavily modified heroes, especially since the Oblivaeon expansion was sold as the final part of the game, and only delivered within a relatively short time frame before a definitive version is being announced. Buying a new version turns their collector's editions in to the world's most spectacular paperweight, and it's not likely that the second hand market will be strong for something where a much cleaner version becomes available. It's not a superhuman level of insight and comprehension to understand this. It should be possible for an average person or better.

I see no reason to edit my initial post. Pointing out someone is coming across sneering due to their ignorance is sadly necessary, my only sadness is for those who can't see why they are being called out and asked to be better, as it means they won't be better in subsequent posts (as you demonstrate)

fjur
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Can we please keep this thread about discussing the Definitive Edition and not making personal attacks?


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Let's make that official: Any further posts not directly related to Definitive Edition will result in disciplinary actions and locking of this thread.

For reference, please see rules 1, 3, 5, 14, and 15 of the Official Forum Rules and rules 1, 4, and 5 of the Forum Discourse Rules.  

Especially that rule 15: "Have fun!" That's the most important one. :-) 


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I would like to say something that is not often said on the internet: you have changed my mind! I wasn't very excited at the prospect of my expansive purchase not being compatible with the new stuff...but by golly if y'all on the 'let's wait and see' side of things haven't turned me around on that. I'm becoming more and more interested, and those (very good) points about how this is a much harder undertaking than simply doing an "upgrade pack" should really squash any thought of this trying to feed on people's wallets. This was a labor of love! I'll still check it out and make a wise decision, but I'm far more hooked than I was a week ago.

Thanks, internet!

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The new Letters Page episode combined with the art being shared frequently by Adam on twitter did move me from "wait and see how it turns out, likely just get the digital version" to "gonna back the kickstarter" I think I still would have prefered going with all the cards in the single "Sentinels" art style to the many (very skillfully) done period sytles cause to my mind it creates a better sense of cohesion and looks cleaner, but I'm not the artist and it is still neat to see them.

 

I do understand the feelings of frustration someone might have if they just want like the story mode campaign and dont want to re-buy the rest of the decks. My guess is that once it is out people will be able to reverse engineer something to work with the old system, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was pretty quickly some kind of fan conversion of the events to the old systems and fan made events floating around out there pretty quickly.


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Like anything done with the conversion "rubric," some will work fine, some will work badly, and some will be little more than gibberish.  You have enough information to guess that the Critical Event for Omnitron would just not translate at all (since the rules that govern Exterminate/Fabricate are on the character card).  And some there won't be any need to convert--the example Critical Event was Mad Bomber Baron Blade, after all.


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Cult of Gloom
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I wasn't refering to someone using the rubric so much as the community making something up whole cloth once they have a basic template to go off of. I didn't playtest this game so I have no idea how the rubric works or anything else, but there are enough people that do fan made content and modes in this community once they have something to work with I am sure someone is gonna do something.

Kind of like making an old favorite class from one edition of DnD work in another, its just a thing gamers do.


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This was a total surprise to me when I opened the Letters Page today, and I've got to say it was a very pleasant surprise. I loved the enthusiasm they had, the idea of story mode, some under-developed characters mechanically (Fanatic and Bunker both mentioned) getting revamped, villians retooled. To me it's just "Sentinels: 2nd edition" and I really hoped for a long time they'd make, even if it primarily included the original couple of sets. 

After Christopher and Adam seemed so pumped about it I kind of hope they don't come see these threads with just how negative a ton of people are being on it.

MindWanderer
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They're aware of the negative feedback.  They don't engage much with the forums but they do check on them, as well as BGG and Reddit, and of course there will be comments on the Kickstarter as well.  And anything they miss, the playtesters often bring up if they feel concerned about something.

Fortunately, it looks like the more they reveal, the more the feedback becomes positive.


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Godai
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So far, from all the descriptions and images, I've yet to see anything that makes me think we CANNOT replace existing decks with new decks, and play. I understand new terminology exists, and some cards say things like "take a power phase" instead of "use a power", but honestly, they still seem compatible. Especially because the decks are designed to have synergy, but not dependence, on other decks. From everything I've seen, the new decks are self-contained. 
Does anyone have any examples of why we can't just replace old decks with new decks, as they come out?

Trajector
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So if the new Bunker deck relies on playing Ordnance and loading it up on different ways...how do you think Expatriette will work?

fjur
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They'll probably still find some way to make them the same, but different.


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MindWanderer
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A little early to theorize how Expat would work when you don't even know how Bunker will work yet.  Christopher did reveal that Bunker can put arbitrary cards under Ordnance, so that's different already.


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Sounds like Bunker has been getting some training from The Idealist =)


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