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Definitive Edition

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poypoyking
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Definitive Edition

I am all for new artwork to better match the newer expansions but ugh. Spent so much on this game already and the announcement said "and a bunch of other brand new things." I am sure it was not the intention but I feel like I am being being forced to by the new version to get all the content.

Spiff
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I'm super sad.  I saw the announcement today and thought I might be up for a streamlined version of this very good cooperative superhero card game.  But then I looked at the all-new card art.  I just can't.  I get what Adam is going for, trying to make it look like comic book panels from when we were kids, but here's the thing about comic books when we were kids -- we didn't love the art because it looked great, we loved it because it was the best we could get at the time.  The old card art may have been rough but at least it had colors.  The new stuff is de-saturated and pixel-y (again, I get it, done on purpose, but woof) and looks kind of awful to me.  I'm super sad that I feel that way and that I can't see myself playing this very good game while staring at that card art the whole time.

I love the changes made to reduce the wall of text on every card (i.e. "Start Phase").  I don't love how the "Ongoing" and "One-Shot" tags are now so small you have to squint to see what kind of card you're holding.  And the new logo is giving me stomach aches -- why is "Of The Multiverse" not centered?  Maybe there's some genius reason for these bad (to my eyes) design choices, but I can't figure them out.

Like I said, I'm super sad today. :(

Link to Polygon article.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm

Rabit
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Understandable responses. Hopefully the things that they show us moving forward will help with some of the concerns, but we'll see. :-\

I'm definitely in the "I love all this" camp, myself. :-) Luckily, nothing they're doing will break what we have now, so we can keep playing with the old stuff. It _is_ going to be hard for completionists to be okay with this, unfortunately, but that's true every time a game comes out with a new edition -- which happens a lot. :-(

Link to Christopher's article here on the GTG site


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My take is that this is more for new people than it is for us oldbies, per se.

There is a not insignificant number of people I've come across over time who like the idea of SotM but can't get past what they see as clunky rules or "bad art". A lot of them in particular signed onto the Freedom Five Kickstarter expressing those sentiments. So this edition which lets Adam show off his current day level of skills and the aptitude for homaging art era styles he's shown on the Letters Page Writers' Room covers, and lets Christopher revamp the rules and flavor text, will help alleviate some of those issues.

Though there are also things us oldbies might find interesting as well. Scenarios, "First Appearance" variants, balancing tweaks to characters some folks find weak, etc.

They've also mentioned things like conversion packs to make old decks compatible with new rules.

I have no doubt Handelabra will be interested in this as well, which may make things cheaper and more accessible for us oldbies to have access to the new things without re-breaking our wallets.


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poypoyking
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Looking at the art I am a little more annoyed now. I assumed that the art would be updated to match say Oblivaeon art style and not a completely new style.

 

If it matched the art style or card layout of Earth Prime (what a long, drawn out kickstarter) then I would consider boxing them together.

 

Ah well. Not everything is for everyone. As mentioned above though the completionist in me gets a facial tic thinking about it.

Spiff
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Sure but how did they decide to move away from this kind of art:

: Guide :: In Depth: Legacy

and decide that this kind of art would be better:

I just don't get it.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm

poypoyking
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Me neither Spiff. Finally read the whole article and how they plan to release 6 more big box expansions over the next 6 years. Makes me cry a little inside.

WalkingTarget
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This may not matter for the specific concerns people have about the art shown, but those are all cards showing panels from old comics, likely chosen for the article precisely because they're in that retro style. Christopher previewed additional cards on the podcast Discord and many had panels from newer issues with a more modern styles (the Character Cards shown, at least the ones that aren't the few "First Appearance" variants, were in the cleaner modern look for example). What may be strange is having a variety of styles within a single deck.

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Well, this first box seems to be a lot of golden/silver age brand characters, so the art seems to reflect that. You wont see that style of art in an Expatriate deck i'd assume. Void Guard will have exclusivly contemporary art, since all their stories are from the modern era. I think its part of the narritive devices they have created since the letters page to solidify what they have been building.

I personaly think the art is fire. Adam nailed that golden/silver age feeling with his own sentinel flavor. 

I have a lot of ppl that love the old art and wont like the new. I have ppl that love the new direction and didnt like the old. Cant please everyone.

 

This wont be something I buy most likely. Ill check out the digital version when its out. I have Sentinels as far as Im concerned. I hope the new version brings in a new wave of sentinel fans into the fold. its a great jumping in point for those who havnt gotten into it yet.

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Mixed emotions on this - I love the game, have everything and don't want to rebuy everything, but at the same time, I'm glad that they're trying to improve the gameplay. I just wish there was something done for us oldies to try and bridge the gap

Jeysie
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WalkingTarget and Foote nailed it, Spiff.

The idea is that if a card's flavor text is taken from the 1960s, it has 1960s era art to match. Or 80s. or 90s. Etc.

Adam's already been doing the same thing for his Writers' Room covers.

It's basically them leaning further into the metaverse they've built up of this being "fictional comics from a fictional comics company".


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Jeysie wrote:
Though there are also things us oldbies might find interesting as well. Scenarios, "First Appearance" variants, balancing tweaks to characters some folks find weak, etc.

Not to mention how dog-eared my copy of The Wraith is getting.... ;)

I am particularly excited for the scenarios, personally, and I'm really interested to see how they plan to weave more story content into the game -- since it seems like they plan to be a little more explicit about going into particular issues, events, and so forth. Like, where do those covers come in?

The art I don't mind -- I get the polarization, but I'm able to look past it. The card redesign I'm a little more iffy on, though, but I'm sure it's still in work and we're looking at mock-ups. I really like the "start phase" indicator (I imagine there would also be tags for "end phase" and "whenever: X"). But I agree with the comment about how small the One-Shot/Ongoing keywords are. And what the heck is "fixed" damage? Oh, gosh, another damage modifier to keep track of! ;)

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I'll join the mixed feelings boat as well. 

WalkingTarget
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"Like, where do those covers come in?"

I'm guessing you mean the Moonfall and Singularity covers? Moonfall kicked off in April '68 and Singularity in April '76 (although we see the cover for issue #8 from November) and cover Baron Blade's original Terralunar Impulsion Beam plot and the Omnitron I events respectively, so basically already what those two villain decks model, only I guess with specific setups to lean even more into the story they envision for the comics.

"I really like the "start phase" indicator (I imagine there would also be tags for "end phase" and "whenever: X")."

Yes, we saw similar color-coded tags for all 5 main turn phases. Also, stuff in Incapacitated abilities that were like "One player takes their Play Phase now" so any modifiers they have in play for their Play Phase (say, Tachyon getting to play extra cards) still take effect.

"And what the heck is "fixed" damage?"

This seems to be a replacement for "irreducible" and my guess of "a symmetrical irreducible, can't be increased or decreased" got a pointing-at-it emoji from Christopher. Somebody else guessed unable to be redirected too, but there was no comment on that one way or the other that I saw.

 

 

Spiff
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I've long felt that GtG spends too much energy on the story their games tell and not enough on the games themselves and the art style change seems to be more of the same.  Making your game look worse just because it fits the story you're telling seems like shooting yourself in the foot.  I hope it works out for them, I guess.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm

Jeysie
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I mean, the entire reason the SotM games exist is because C&A wanted to tell a story, and many of us are here specifically because we like the Sentinels fiction including the metafiction.


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

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Wow! It's so fun to come back to the GtG forums and see so many familiar faces all in one post!

As an "oldbie," I would certainly agree that this isn't for us...which is a shame because I definitely want to support the company (and Adam and Christopher, who feel like cousins or something haha). I'm sure this will get made because Kickstarter is where it's at, but I can't imagine it getting the same tidal wave of support as OblivAeon. As for the new art, I would love it to be integrated into my current set, and I would buy it easily if that were the case. But...c'est la vie!

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I personally love how the art faithfully replicates the art of the era the comics are supposed to come from.  I can look at pretty art anywhere.  Art that evokes real comic books from the history of a made-up publisher, placing each story somewhere in an 80-year history, is completely unique.  Heck, I'd actually prefer it if games like Marvel Legendary did the same thing!  For me, story and history trump attractiveness.  Adam has done a stellar job with this and--other than the new, non-cute Raptor Bot--I wouldn't have it any other way.

I personally probably won't buy this right away, unless the Kickstarter comes with lots of perks, just because it doesn't include all the content, especially my wife's favorite hero Parse. (She complained bitterly about not being able to play Parse every time we playtested.)  Plus we don't game in-person these days anyway.  But I'll almost certainly get it eventually.  It's an amazing product.  As a playtester, I'm very proud of what I was able to be a part of here.

 


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I'm pretty neutral on the change in the art - it runs the risk of making the decks look inconsistent for the long running heroes (same way modern and silver-age Spiderman comics are inconsistent), and between heroes of different eras, but at the same time the original art has always felt more cartoon than comic-book. That's not a criticism of Adam, it's a product of how quickly they had to put the games together and the sheer amount of art required, so I can't blame them wanting to take another pass at it.

I'm much more interested in the game play changes and how those are handled

Trajector
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WalkingTarget wrote:

"Like, where do those covers come in?"

I'm guessing you mean the Moonfall and Singularity covers? Moonfall kicked off in April '68 and Singularity in April '76 (although we see the cover for issue #8 from November) and cover Baron Blade's original Terralunar Impulsion Beam plot and the Omnitron I events respectively, so basically already what those two villain decks model, only I guess with specific setups to lean even more into the story they envision for the comics.

Yeah, I know what stories they represent, what I meant was more like, how do those covers integrate into the gameplay material? Are they on setup cards for scenarios? Pictures in the rulebook? The backs of Baron Blade and Omnitron cards? There are lots of possibilities, and I think this is an opportunity to better integrate the story with the game, which would be cool.

I should also say that when I wrote that I see how the art is polarizing, but I could look past it -- I meant looking past the polarization, not the art. I do kind of like the "period" art. Baron Blade in particular looks fantastic! I hope it all integrates together into a cohesive whole, with the newer-style art presumably on other cards.

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Poypoyking wrote:
Me neither Spiff. Finally read the whole article and how they plan to release 6 more big box expansions over the next 6 years. Makes me cry a little inside.

To be fair, I think that's just re-releasing all the old material.

Definitive Edition - has twelve heroes, six villains, and six environments. I predict it'll be the ten original core heroes plus Unity and the Scholar, the four original core villains plus Ambuscade and Miss Information, and the four original core environments plus Omnitron-IV and Silver Gulch.

Big Box 1: Rook City and Infernal Relics [12 decks]

Big Box 2: Shattered Timelines and Wrath of the Cosmos [12 decks]

Big Box 3: Vengeance [12 decks]

Big Box 4*: Villains of the Multiverse [14 decks, but no heroes so not as many cards]

Big Box 5*: Standalones. Seven heroes (Benchmark, Guise, Stuntman, and Void Guard) Two Villains (Chokepoint, Wager Master) and Two Environments (Celestial Tribunal and Final Wasteland.) [11 decks, but more hero-tilted] 

[* - It's possible that they'll rearrange Villains and the Standalones to balance them out a bit more; maybe five Vengeance-style villains, one standard villain, three or four heroes and three environments per set.]

Big Box 6: Oblivaeon. [14 decks: five heroes, five environments, and four Oblivaeon-specific decks.]

That's a full six boxes of re-released Sentinels material without actually having any new decks. 

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I wasn't sure what to expect art wise from this update but I was amazed by the varying styles that Adam is able to do.  It adds more flavor and history to it.   


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I'm on the mixed bag train too. Like the art nails the look its going for, but I think the game will lose something having different styles on the board clashing with each other. Rather then a shared art style making everything feel like a living world happening "now" it is going to make different elements feel like they belong in different times and places. Which I could see being seen as a plus, but its not what I would go with. They also just look less visually pleasing.


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Christopher clarified that there will be 6 boxes total, not 6 expansions.  The core box bas been confirmed to include the Freedom Five, Prime Wardens, Unity, Ra, and the original core villains and environments plus Akash'Bhuta, Matriarch, Magmaria, and Freedom Tower.

My personal guess is a core box, a Dark Watch urban/magic box, a Void Guard cosmic box, a timelines/multiverse box, and OblivAeon.  That's five.  No idea what direction Vengeance/Villains is going.

 


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FrivYeti
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Oh, I was way off. Thanks for the update, MindWanderer!

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CultOfGloom wrote:
I think the game will lose something having different styles on the board clashing with each other. Rather then a shared art style making everything feel like a living world happening "now" it is going to make different elements feel like they belong in different times and places.

That may be an issue even with a hero's deck, so someone like Wraith could have old style and modern cards being laid out next to each other. It's an interesting choice, but I could see it being pretty divisive for fans. There seems to be enough people against screencaps for card art, and that's a pretty similar issue

 

EDIT - anyone know how to get the HTML tags to work for the quote? Thanks Rabit!

Rabit
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ViolentSilence wrote:
EDIT - anyone know how to get the HTML tags to work for the quote?
You have to use the [ quote= "name" ] tag, just remove the spaces. 

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Thanks Rabit, they might need to change the info under the posts, I got confused with the line below, so couldn't figure out what was wrong. I tried quote, but didn't change to square brackets

" Allowed HTML tags: <a> <em> <strong> <u> <cite> <blockquote> <code> <ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <p> <br> <img> <b> "

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I don't really have an opinion on the "polarising" art. It's all better than I can draw! ; D

I am, however, quite saddened that they're relesing new mechanical content (variants, scenarios) that, in order to get, one would need to buy many dollars worth of content that one already owns.


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I purchased my first copy of SotM from Chris and Paul at their convention table in 2011, and I've participated in every Kickstarter, pre-sale, etc., since. I'm extremely disappointed with today's news.

When the DE was first mentioned in the Letters Page, I had one question: "What about those of us who have followed this game for 10 years and spent hundreds of dollars on the product?" The answer we got today was loud and clear—thanks, but if you want to keep following SotM, you're going to have to keep paying. Oh, and by the way, we're calling this new game the "Definitive Edition," and we're making sure it's "improved in just about every way" and is "the best version of Sentinels of the Multiverse that anyone ha[s] ever seen"—hope you're not a completionist or prone to FOMO.

And what's so frustrating to me is that I love this game. And I think the new art is great, and I'm interested in seeing the streamlined rules and new iterations of characters. But in order to do that, I have to re-buy everything I already own. And to a certain extent, I think GtG is banking on the fact that many of us are going to keep ponying up because we love the game and want to have the latest and greatest version of it. I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of, and it sucks.

 

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Another old fart over here. I'm going to paddle against the stream and say that I like it, every bit of it.

Even way back around the Infernal Relics/Shattered Timeline era I felt that >G should have recognised some of the problems with the game as it stood at the time, stopped everything and gone into revision. Instead they went on to do numerous reprints knowing all the time that there were very simple and easy fixes such as changing to more legible fonts, improving the graphic layout and highlighting the game phases where effects happen. Even during Oblivaeon they were still making unforgivably dumb graphic choices like putting dark text on a dark background.

Offering us balance tweaks, clearer and more economical wording, and Adam's art and composition getting better are just the icing on the cake.

The only thing that I dislike is that the font size appears to be getting smaller which is not a sensible thing to do, especially the Ongoing/Equipment tag which ought to be at least four times bigger so that it can be easily seen across the playing area. I remain blessed with good eyesight and the new font, despite being significantly more readible, is just on the edge of becoming too small for me and would really benefit from being a couple of points larger. Anyone suffering from vision impairment is going to struggle for sure, I can see the future negative feedback all the way from here.

I have to confess that I rarely play Sentinels these days as Spirit Island and other games are far more attractive to us so having a new edition might well be the re-invigoration that we need to get it back on regular rotation again. I shall quite happily sell all of my current stuff and start buying into this new version instead.

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CBattles6 wrote:

I purchased my first copy of SotM from Chris and Paul at their convention table in 2011, and I've participated in every Kickstarter, pre-sale, etc., since. I'm extremely disappointed with today's news.

When the DE was first mentioned in the Letters Page, I had one question: "What about those of us who have followed this game for 10 years and spent hundreds of dollars on the product?" The answer we got today was loud and clear—thanks, but if you want to keep following SotM, you're going to have to keep paying. Oh, and by the way, we're calling this new game the "Definitive Edition," and we're making sure it's "improved in just about every way" and is "the best version of Sentinels of the Multiverse that anyone ha[s] ever seen"—hope you're not a completionist or prone to FOMO.

And what's so frustrating to me is that I love this game. And I think the new art is great, and I'm interested in seeing the streamlined rules and new iterations of characters. But in order to do that, I have to re-buy everything I already own. And to a certain extent, I think GtG is banking on the fact that many of us are going to keep ponying up because we love the game and want to have the latest and greatest version of it. I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of, and it sucks.

The history you describe fits me, also. :-D 

In no way am I going to say your feelings are wrong -- they're your feelings and I will not invalidate them -- but I had a very different reception to the Definitive Edition announcement. I'm really glad they are taking this step to introduce the game to a new audience of people who weren't able to appreciate the original (due to art, inconsistencies, whatever) by addressing those concerns. And they haven't invalidated everything that we loved in the first place, although I understand and appreciate the point about completionists / FOMO. :-(  

However, I think that, if they were just going to take advantage of us, they would have just continued to create new expansions. :-\ I mean, people were begging them to do so, and it's not like they couldn't. But they didn't want to just keep trolling people for cash (as some other games have -- I'm looking at you, Dominion :-( ) and had a very specific story to tell. 

But that's just me and how I'm looking at this. :-) 


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On the Ongoing/One-Shot thing, can you also distinguish between them by the color of the card background?

EDIT: Looks like not, it's just a hero/villain card distinction that I was seeing in the examples.

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CBattles6 wrote:
 And I think the new art is great, and I'm interested in seeing the streamlined rules and new iterations of characters. But in order to do that, I have to re-buy everything I already own.

Actually, you don't, FWIW. Paul mentioned on the LP server they're going to have a conversion document that will update the old cards to the new rules if you want to use the new rules. It won't be perfect since some cards have been replaced/split, but it'll still let you use the new rules if you want. (I do think this should be said publicly by the GTG folks to alleviate this concern, but it has been said.)


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Also, I'm pretty sure the upcoming [REDACTED] episode of the Letters Page is going to be all about the Definitive Edition. The timing is pretty convenient. I'm guessing they will answer a lot of these questions there, if asked. 

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My biggest hope is that they'll release the First Appearance Variants and Scenarios seperately, so those of us who already bought the "First Edition" can buy them without having to buy so much stuff we alreay own. But I doubt that'll happen. :' (

Also, according to MindWanderer's post above, I guess that means no The Visionary. . . She'll probably be in the "timelines/multiverse box" MindWanderer guessed about.


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I wish them well in this new edition, but I'm good with what I have. Time will tell if this move was worth it. 

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Quote: My biggest hope is that they'll release the First Appearance Variants and Scenarios seperately, so those of us who already bought the "First Edition" can buy them without having to buy so much stuff we alreay own. But I doubt that'll happen. :' (

 

That is my hope and fear as well.

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Godai wrote:
Also, I'm pretty sure the upcoming [REDACTED] episode of the Letters Page is going to be all about the Definitive Edition. The timing is pretty convenient. I'm guessing they will answer a lot of these questions there, if asked.

It is, and they do in fact want people to get their questions in today.


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Yup. After reconciling myself to "No More Sentinels" and a Sidekick app that STILL doesn't include Oblivaeon (and now the black box coming apart) the news that those of us that have given GTG 400+ dollars on this one game get is "spend more for an improved in every way game" feels like a bit of a bummer.

But it is what it is I suppose.

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" However, I think that, if they were just going to take advantage of us, they would have just continued to create new expansions. "

I will never understand this thinking. Until Oblivaeon, their expansions hadn't been trolls or cash grabs... they added awesome new elements and characters and a rich experience. Them choosing to end the story... cool, their choice. But to keep printing expansions would have been a service to fans as long as the gameplay stayed good.

Revising the rules and asking people to pony back up... that's not the same as printing expansion content for people who already gave them 400+

Jeysie
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Other companies: Create tons of new editions of all their games every other year.

Board game fans:

GTG: Create a single new edition in ten years after they've led up to it for ages saying it's a creative desire to fix problems they've had creative issues with that also addresses issues that have turned off a fair number of potential new players.

Board game fans: CASH GRAB CASH GRAB CASH GRAB


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

fjur
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I, for one, am not claiming it is a "cash grab," I am just saying I'm probably not going to buy it because I already own 90% of it. (Then again, your comment was probably not directed at me, but I still felt the urge to defend myself. ; ))

I do realise that this thread seems to be full of complaints, but I, for one, do think it is a great new edition to a great game, that fixes and improves many things, and newbies should definitely get it. It's just not for those of us who already bought the First Edition and don't want to pay twice for what is, essential, the same content.


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Jeysie
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fjur: That was more aimed at Ulf316CBattles6, and similar comments I've seen on Reddit and BGG.

I don't have a problem with people who just aren't interested in rebuying it or would rather see what Handelabra does with it, I'm just weary of the blatant double standard of those folks specifically screaming about "cash grabs" when they don't blink twice at other gaming companies making new editions all the time.


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

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My opinion is that GtG will most likely already be looking into options on how to singularly sell the "new" items (variants/scenarios), even if it is not at retail release of the Definitive Edition. It is money on the table, and while they are not out for a cash grab, they would be fools to not recognize that not everyone will buy the Definitive Editions (for valid reasons listed in this thread), but will still want The New Shinies. 
 

I would expect an announcement along the lines of "halfway between DE box 1 and DE box 2, here is New Stuff Pack 1."

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The entire box is New Shinies.  If your intent is to buy only the content that differs between EE and DE, you will be buying the entire thing.  Maybe not every individual card, but close enough to make no significant difference--and you wouldn't want to mismatch the card backs anyway.


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Trajector
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It sounds like we should expect forthcoming announcements with lots more details: https://twitter.com/GTGChristopher/status/1354481228393623554

Ulf316
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Jeysie, how do you know people don't blink twice? That's very presumptuous of you.

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When Christopher first shared first draft of DE files with playtesters my reaction was "why?"

After playing the final version my reaction is "why would I ever go back?" (Especially if/when DE is adapted as a digital game).

I get that this won't be for everyone, but it really sucks to see people calling it a cash grab after seeing how much work Christopher, Adam, and Chris poured into it.

Ulf316
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Dandolo: You made the point many you are decrying are making. You said they made a new version that makes you never want to go back to the old. You have thousands of us that have stood by GtG and given them hundreds of dollars for this game already, who are being told "Oh, but  once you buy these you'll never go back!". Can you not see how that might be perceived by someone as they look at their decaying black box of content?

I frankly am happy they are putting a base edition back out for consumption by new players but the initial messaging of "you need these new rules because they are so much better" landed on some (potentially formerly) loyal customers the wrong way.

 

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Ulf316 wrote:
Jeysie, how do you know people don't blink twice?

It's called "reading board game communities and not seeing this level of complaining about other games getting new editions". :P

I think the only time I've recently seen people complain this much about a new edition was Arkham Horror and that seemed far less fueled by the mere fact of a new edition existing the way this is and more fueled by things like it being created without Launius' input and making changes people didn't like.


"If life gives you lemons, make a lemon cannon."

Not always the best at social skills; I apologize in advance. I don't apologize for any corny and morbid jokes, though.

Resident Argent Adept and Biomancer fangirl, be forewarned.

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