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Proletariat/Stealth Bot Clarification at PAX (Now with Errata!)

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Foote
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Proletariat/Stealth Bot Clarification at PAX (Now with Errata!)

Well...I actually have mislead all of you. It's not a clarification. More so the Proletariat/Stealth Bot question is back up in the air.

Both Luther on the forums and Paul at PAX have expressed the opinion that if one Proletariat is given cover from Stealth Bot, then all Pro's on the map gain cover as well.

Christopher, on the other hand, disagreed with that ruling when I asked him while we were live casting together.

As far as I can tell, if you tried to pull that combo off in a tournament setting, it currently would not be allowed (Christopher issues rulings to the table from the casting booth off air). 

Edited by: Foote on Mar 12 2015 - 2:16pm
Paul
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Here is the situation:

Stealth Bot is now officially errata'd.

The current wording does in fact work the way that Luther mentioned on the forums and that I discussed with Foote at PAX. However, that is not the intent of the card, is unintuitive, and is potentially game-breaking BS. The card will be errata'd to specify that it only effects adjacent allied targets.


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Foote
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Paul wrote:

Here is the situation:Stealth Bot is now officially errata'd.The current wording does in fact work the way that Luther mentioned on the forums and that I discussed with Foote at PAX. However, that is not the intent of the card, is unintuitive, and is potentially game-breaking BS. The card will be errata'd to specify that it only effects adjacent allied targets.

Thanks Paul!

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So what's the new wording/intent so I can put it into the FAQ?


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Foote
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Spiff wrote:

So what's the new wording/intent so I can put it into the FAQ?

On Stealth Bot's card, change the word "Allies" to "Allied Targets".

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Yup.


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Ronway
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Is this the only card featuring that change? Or will cards like Champion Bot and Luminous Leadership also included?

Foote
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Ronway wrote:

Is this the only card featuring that change? Or will cards like Champion Bot and Luminous Leadership also included?

Don't forget half of Visionary's cards as well

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So at this point is there any exception to the general principle, "All rules are interpreted so as to provide the least benefit possible to Proletariat"?

phantaskippy
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Stealthbot is the only one changing so far, and I don't imagine the others will.  Stealthbot applying to all Proletariats is just too much.

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So, question: Would the rewording on this indicate that if Citizen Truth is not reworded, he could protect a proletariat being attacking on the opposite side of the map, assuming there is a proletariat within 3 tiles of him?

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Rath wrote:

So, question: Would the rewording on this indicate that if Citizen Truth is not reworded, he could protect a proletariat being attacking on the opposite side of the map, assuming there is a proletariat within 3 tiles of him?

I'd hazard a guess to say that Truth would be ruled as "Allied Targets" as well, but it's a great question to have cleared up. Visionary's powers, as well as Legacy's Heroic Interception, would also all need some official clarification in case errata is being issues to them as well.

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I would assume interception and Truth would be allied targets, since thematically it makes more sense.

Visionary probably as well.

Rath
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I'd be very dissapointed to see that. Even if it doesn't quite fit thematically, Proletariat is fairly weak in the current meta, and doesn't have that much going for him beyond being very good at forced movement, and being (somewhat) hard to kill in singular hits. I think it's a interesting(and thematic) situation for him to also be to be particularly good at teamwork.

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Just wait, the meta game will get around to Proletariat once it gets over drafting individual heroes, and people start counter picking teams.

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phantaskippy wrote:

Just wait, the meta game will get around to Proletariat once it gets over drafting individual heroes, and people start counter picking teams.

 

Yeah, I think I agree. So far all three official tournaments have had players that were, for the most part, completely new to the game. I expect things to change pretty drastically once we start seeing experienced teams.


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phantaskippy wrote:

Just wait, the meta game will get around to Proletariat once it gets over drafting individual heroes, and people start counter picking teams.

Proletariat does not work as a "tech" pick. At least not with the current cast of characters. I agree that Pro will find his place eventually, but it will not be because teams learned to counter pick. What current character could a team choose with a first pick that would force your hand to take Pro as a hard counter? I don't see it. In my mind, Proletariat needs to be taken as a core pick instead of being Teched into your team. You build a team around Pro. An example of another "core pick" type is Legacy. You don't tech in Legacy to a team, you build a team around what Legacy does best.

Some characters can function well as a tech or a core option depending on how you plan to use them (Wraith, Unity, Operative, ect.), but I do not look at Proletariat as in that catagory.

[Mini 3v3 Draft Theory]

3-Core: Example would be the popular team of Legacy/Dawn/Ra. In this team, all three members were likely picked because of how well they work together and compliment a particular strategy that doesn't really care about the composition of the other team. Strengths of 3-core teams include very high synergy and cohesivness when executing a team plan. They leave themselves wide open to the other team double-teching in hard counters to your core however. When you ban, you gotta use it to erase one of the other teams tech options. In this example, Baron Blade would likely prove the most problematic, so you ban him to allow Legacy the option to generate tokens when needed.

2-Core-Tech: I personally love 2-Core-Tech type teams as an archtype. When you draft, have an idea of a duo that work really well together and keep your third slot open as a specific counter pick. For example, choosing Wraith/Dawn as a strong core and teching in Ambuscade against an opponents Unity selection. There is a lot more flexability with a 2-Core-Tech type team than there is with a 3-core, and you can give yourself an edge in at least one of the matchups against your opponent. You might want to use your ban in the same way a 3-core does by banning a popular tech option, but it's always feasable to ban a core option away from the other team if you want to disrupt their strategy (something a 3-core team can't really afford to do)

Double-Tech: Here you can base your draft strategy around straight up teching your opponents first 2 picks and depending on how those look, pick up a core option last that can glue the team together or that can work as a stand-alone lynchpin. Dawn, Omnitron, and Operative all come to mind as very strong lynchpins if you double Teched off the bat. The strengths are that you are picking a team specifically to have a huge advantage in certain matchups against your opponent. You don't really care that much who you ban and you're planning on teching out their next pick anyway, so an effective ban strategy would be to ban an option that could tech well against your first pick. It's the opposite of the 3-core philosophy because you only care about what your openents are chosing. It's weakness is that you may not have great cohesion in the team as a whole while you rely on the individual matchups instead of synergy.

-------

Proletariat would have the easiest time finding his way into a 3-Core type team and I think he would shine there. He doesn't hard counter anyone, but he is very hard to tech against when spaced out well. AbZero/Beacon/Pro, chosen in that order, is a rock solid 3-Core type team (especially considering the PAX East map) thats very annoying to try and Tech against, and you are free to try and Ban out a core option for the opposition.

Find someone who can play him REALLY well though and I think you could use him as the glue in a Double-Tech strat because of how difficult he can be to deal with and incap, forcing the issue with the other team to go after unfavorable matchups with your other two picks.

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Different thing.  Counter picking a team involves designing teams that can be flipped to be about various strategies depending on what the other team gives away.  So your third pick would be a character your team is designed around, your first picks are versatile pieces that fit multiple styles, so you don't give away your strategy.

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What does "tech" mean in this context?


Just assume I'm always doing that.

Damn it, Ronway!

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It's a term I'm kinda borrowing from the competitive 2D fighter scene. Tech in this sense is something you do for a specific purpose. Just like you can "tech" in a move that takes advatange of frame rates to counter a move in a 2D fighter, you can "tech" in a character pick when drafting to counter an opponents pick. its something you do for a specific purpose in relation to your opponent. 

I use "core" in the sense that it matters little in the way of how it impacts your opponent. You use a "core" type pick because it fits what you want to do independent of what your opponent does. 

 

Baron Blade is a great tech pick vs Legacy because he serves such a specific purpose in that matchup. 

Legact is a great core pick because regardless of the opponent you have a solid idea of how you will want to use him. 

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Coming from a different angle, I think this garments itself to much more versatility than you are giving it with those terms.

Legacy is so far being used as a token generator that can flying smash, but he fits many roles, a stall team can use him really well if they have a sniper, since he can cover and heal.

Dawn even more so, as she has her citizens and powers combined to create a great amount of role versatility.

In my prediction of where this game should be headed meta-wise, is your ban being your most important pick, using it to block the main counter for your options.  After that you grab strong, multi-role heroes that allow your third pick to decide your team's strategy.

For example, Wraith, Unity is a fantastic opener, you can go all out champ-knives, you can go alone wolf with Wraith and frontal assault with swift & chomps, and your third pick will largely decide which approach you take, with more options for some choices.  Add in Dawn for example, and you get a lot of support for either of those styles

Truth with unity and dawn while Wraith and Champ split off is wicked, while luminous plus bot rush is strong, or my favorite, stun bolts, BST, and a turret rush gets really creative.

I think the real strategy is going to be lining up powers in ways people haven't seen, and being able to counter while the other team can't get a good read on you.

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I disagree, Legacy is a flex pick. He can do token gen, but he is good at defending allies, and flying smash dealt good damage at pax east. 

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I think you guys are missing what I'm saying. Just because you are a flexible/versitile character does not mean you function well as what I'm calling a "Tech" type pick. You are not picking Legacy as a reaction to the other teams picks, nor is he a hard-counter to any other character/common strat. You use your pick on Legacy because it jams well with what you want to do with your team and your strategy and you can build a team around him. 

phantaskippy wrote:

In my prediction of where this game should be headed meta-wise, is your ban being your most important pick, using it to block the main counter for your options.  After that you grab strong, multi-role heroes that allow your third pick to decide your team's strategy.

This is an example of going 2-Core to start. Multi-role heros that can be used in a bunch of different ways, when picked for that purpose of working well together, is Core. If you picked Wraith 3rd because you thought "Hey, maybe I can pick off their Tachyon who's going last in the turn order before she gets off and running", that would essentially be Teching in Wraith because of how and when you picked it. If Wraith was your plan all along and it didn't really matter who the other team picked, Wraith in that sense would have been a Core pick. 

I'm giving terms to underlying reasons why you'd pick a character and how that can apply to general team building.

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My only alteration to what you are saying Foote, is that many teams can alter their core with that last pick, letting you counter pick their team with a cohesive team of your own.

Side note:  I'm running champion bot a lot right now, and I am in love with a swift bot to champion bot rush that sets up Tachyon for a wicked opening turn.  Scored 2 incapps on my teams second turn that way.

Next game they banned tach so we champ-turret-BST rushed them with brisk effulgence.  Omnitron was our third, so it was ugly.

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phantaskippy wrote:

My only alteration to what you are saying Foote, is that many teams can alter their core with that last pick, letting you counter pick their team with a cohesive team of your own.

Your pick can still work cohesivly with the rest of your team but essentinally still be a Tech pick. It really depends on the when and you you made the pick. Some characters can function well as either Core/Tech picks so the line can be blurred at times. Look at Baron Blade. He can be a solid Core pick. But if the other team picks Legacy, and your next pick after that is Baron Blade, that's a Tech, because it was made with a hard counter in mind instead of purely inter-team strategy.

Maybe these terms are not useful, and thats fair. It's how I approach it from a theory standpoint though. It's merit is up for debate.

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This discussion might be my favorite thread to ever appear on this forum.


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The terms still work, they just apply better to characters that can't change drastically after selection.

Like you can tech Baron to counter Legacy, but what you are actually doing is teching disruptor to galvanize/presence, and secondarily teching sabre/redistributor to his all adjacent damage.

 

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phantaskippy wrote:

The terms still work, they just apply better to characters that can't change drastically after selection.Like you can tech Baron to counter Legacy, but what you are actually doing is teching disruptor to galvanize/presence, and secondarily teching sabre/redistributor to his all adjacent damage. 

Not really though. You don't ever need to play Disruptor to keep Legacy from generating tokens. Just the fact that Baron is on the other team forces you to not do that. His mere precense forces Legacy into a much narrower corner and thats what a Tech pick is used for when Drafting.

And I'm just focusing purely on the draft side of things. What happens in-game is not in the scope of what I was focusing on. It's about different ways to approach the draft phase to build a competitive team and how you spend your picks.

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I can follow that, it's just less specific than I've seen tech used before.